Suggest DDR2 2x1G sticks that can do 3-3-3 timings

Guys, I wonder, what 2x1G sticks to use in my ASRock 775Dual-VSTA to get the maximum possible ram speed. There are some cool rams out there, that can do very nice speeds, like these - 413MHz, 3-3-3-5 1T timings:

http://hwbot.org/submission/582356_mayk_pcmark_2004_core_2_x6800_%282.93ghz%29_13547_marks (but user Mayk is not registred on this forum, so I cannot ask, what rams he used)

- 294MHz, 3-3-3-9 1T timings:

http://hwbot.org/submission/2738623_michaelnm_3dmark2001_se_geforce_6800_gs_%28nv42%29_agp_42240_marks (user michaelnm asked about witch rams he used)

- 465MHz, 3-3-3-1 (?) 2T (?) timings:

http://hwbot.org/submission/590221_roro_superpi___32m_core_2_x6800_%282.93ghz%29_9min_19sec_340ms (no user roro on this forum is registred)

So I would like to know, what rams get, to get similar/same/better results. The aimed CPU is Core Duo Extreme X6800 with FSB 1066MHz, mobo ASRock 775Dual-VSTA (DDR2 667 supported, so 333MHz) and 3-3-3 timings is a *must* reach at such clocks.

All I managed to find ATM is CellShock CS2221440 rams, witch are praised a lot in tests:

http://www.memorybenchmark.net/ram.php?ram=MSC+Vertriebs+GmbH+CS2221440+1GB&id=2592

Show capability of 3-3-3-8 timings (at 1T up to 358MHz, witch is pretty good):

http://www.modlabs.net/page/cellshock-cs2221440-ddr2-ekskljuziv-made-in-germany#.VZWd_oLw7Gg

...and overclockers pushed them a lot too, 440MHz, 3-3-3-5 with 2.51V (ugh) and unknown command rate:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?201773-Micron-D9-GMH-GKX-JKH-etc-club/page91

The results around "3-3-3-5 @ 800 is only good at 2.0-2.1v." would be great, but Google search returned nothing to sale (not even on eBay) for "CellShock CS2221440", so I probably have to look out for alternatives too.

Anyone who can suggest a good 2x1G DDR2 rams with the 1T capable of 3-3-3 timings...? Not need to have TRAS 1, lol. That is probably some sort of error, lol. Cannot imagine that this is a real value :banana:

Was going to say CellShocks, not easy to come by though. Try Tracers too.

...yep, these Cell Shocks are looking good, but it will be hard to find any seller of them. So I have to keep an eye for alternatives too. Of course the problem is, that when using the target CPU, there will be some ram divider, as the mobo (ASRock 775Dual-VSTA) does support FSB 1066, but only a 667 for DDR2 rams. That tend to more that suggest, that the ram overclock will be quite limited (I will push the FSB up as high, as it can, with way worser mobo it get to 300MHz easily w/o any troubles and w/o even trying to mod the mobo in any way: http://hwbot.org/submission/2863476_...75i65g_300_mhz ), so I need tight timings.

3-3-3 must be always reachable at somewhat lower clocks.

As far as voltage goes, on the High settings I get 2.1V into the DDR2 rams in this ASRock 775Dual-VSTA mobo. So unless we talking about voltage mod, the max. voltage will be 2.1V. Somewhat limiting as well, but these Cell Shock results ("The results around "3-3-3-5 @ 800 is only good at 2.0-2.1v.") would be satisfaction.

With DDR(1) and Celeron D 336 (old Presscot core) is the ram divider at 5:6, eg. FSB 164 gives a 197MHz on rams:

http://hwbot.org/submission/2911678_trodas_reference_clock_775dual_vsta_164_mhz

It is, however (FSB 1066 vs max supported DDR2 667 rate) very likely, that such nice divider won't be used when I run Core Duo Extreme X6800 in the board.

So when people are selling rams, they mostly focus on the maximum overclock with relaxed timings - example for the Team 800C3:

http://overclock.pl/forum/threads/11118-wyprzeda%C5%BC-Micron-DDR2

"650 5-5-5-15 @ 2.4" - not really what I'm looking for.

Also for the 3-3-3-8 timings I find only Geil's GX22GB6400EB3DC ... however they need 2.15 to 2.5V for it, witch is way too much...

D9GMH and D9GKX are the ones to go for. Nothing else will do it AFAIK.

Ballistix 5300 dual-sided should be a fairly good bet. Most 6400 and 8500 dual-sided also. I probably have a few sticks here, but if I do, they'll be partially degraded.

Hmmm, only 512MB versions have the 3-3-3 timings:

http://www.amazon.com/Ballistix-PC2-5300-3-3-3-12-UNBUFFERED-DDR2-667/dp/B000ACJQNA?tag=duckduckgo-d-20

The 1G versions Crucial Ballistix DDR2-1066 (PC2 8500) BL2KIT12864AA1065 have timings 5-5-5-15 (pheeew), yet use Micron D9 chips and looking very pretty:

http://www.bjorn3d.com/2007/06/crucial-ballistix-2gb-pc2-8500/

It would require some testings, if they can run tight timings on lower memory clock speeds... What did you do to the poor ram chips, that you say that they are pertially degraded? Confes, infidel!

Don't worry about the timings. Micron & Crucial didn't/don't care about adventurous bins, they want yield. Same ICs under all the sets

My RAM is partially degraded from running up to 2.5v

I think I got to ~450MHz at 3-3-3 on P35, but I don't think I got SPi32M stable at that.

I would also search for FatBodies - 800 4-3-2 is also a good option

Voltage of 2,1v might spoil your fun, no idea how good MCH is on asrock board. But 667 crucials were also at c3 2x1gb available.

So I have to pick carefully. I was not having too much voltage headroom there with 2.1V maximum w/o moding. Witch 667 Crucials are 1G and CL3?

Crucial Ballistix BL2KIT12864AA663 promise at DDR2-667 reasonable 3-3-3-12 timings, but 2.2V is stated as requirment:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/1951/2

...and there is not much results that give the "BL2KIT12864AA663" type with the CL3 ratings

Don't worry about the timings. Micron & Crucial didn't/don't care about adventurous bins, they want yield. Same ICs under all the sets

So you say that I could get the 3-3-3 timings from the rams, even that they are not guaranted to do this? Sounds reasonable (same chips cannot be all that different), but I still like to have the CL3 guaranted somehow. Look, there are even G-Skill DDR2 2GB 800MHz CL4 (2x1GB) F2-6400CL4D-2GBPK for sale now:

http://pameti.heureka.cz/g-skill-ddr2-2gb-800mhz-cl4-2x1gb-f2-6400cl4d-2gbpk/

...but they are CL4. What guarantees I have, that at 667MHz they reach stable CL3 clocks? The memory setting on ASRock 775Dual-VSTA are so complex that I never seen anything like that - ever. And I have my doubts that anyone could help me / explain me these settings. There are simply too much of them :-O

My RAM is partially degraded from running up to 2.5v

Oh, you are so bad! Poor ram, 2.5V ... ts ts So how it get worser from such treatment? Have you measured the degradation somehow? Do it reach lower clocks now?

~450MHz at 3-3-3 on P35, but I don't think I got SPi32M stable at that

That 3-3-3 timings at 450MHz sounds pretty good. Witch chips / rams precisely you are talking about...? So I could look for them and see. No 32M SuperPi stable? Then back down few MHz and try again? Somewhere the stable clock must be found, unless these rams are permanently damaged, witch would be unfortunate. Try...?

I would also search for FatBodies - 800 4-3-2 is also a good option

Sure it can be a good option, but since I will be seriously clock-limited, then I have to get the absolute lowest DDR2 ram timings that exist for the best performance at given clocks. So CL4 is not really an option. I have my eyes on 3-2-2-8 DDR2 rams - even these that claim 3-3-3-12 can run 3-2-2-8 at 320MHz:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/1951/7

http://www.anandtech.com/show/1951/9

"Crucial Ballistix, using Micron's latest DDR2 chips, is competitive with any DDR2 memory that we have tested in the recent past. The performance appears to be better than early versions of Micron's Fat Body D chips"

PS: "even though DDR2-667 SDRAM with extremely low timings like 3-2-2-8 is just a little faster than DDR2-800 SDRAM with 5-5-5-15 timings"

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/memory/display/ddr2-oc1ghz_10.html

...that is why I seek the best timings possible, since I fear that I will be limited to DDR2 667 speed.

You can find good D9 even in low-binned stuff.

For example this is Crucial value ram without heatsinks and rated 800 6-6-6 1.8V: http://hwbot.org/submission/2306681_i.nfrar.ed_3dmark03_geforce_fx_5900_xt_9438_marks

Less than 2.5V if I recall. Chips are D9GKX.

2.1V is your limiting factor though, 4-3-3 would be more realistic, unless you bin a lot of D9.

I have about 10 sticks of Ballistix 667C3, on DFI P35/Asus X38 they do up to 400-420 CL3 with 2.2 easy, but I fear that 2.1 on ASRock VSTA is like <2.0 on one of those above and 400 CL3 is difficult.

@trodas - I see that you're quoting my offer of Team 800 C3 I still have them, although I only tested them on Gigabyte EP45-UD3R, which has this unique ability of running mems like no other board. Besides, those Teams are binned for 800 CL3-3-3-8 @2.3V.

So you say that I could get the 3-3-3 timings from the rams, even that they are not guaranted to do this? Sounds reasonable (same chips cannot be all that different), but I still like to have the CL3 guaranted somehow. Look, there are even G-Skill DDR2 2GB 800MHz CL4 (2x1GB) F2-6400CL4D-2GBPK for sale now:

http://pameti.heureka.cz/g-skill-ddr2-2gb-800mhz-cl4-2x1gb-f2-6400cl4d-2gbpk/

...but they are CL4. What guarantees I have, that at 667MHz they reach stable CL3 clocks? The memory setting on ASRock 775Dual-VSTA are so complex that I never seen anything like that - ever. And I have my doubts that anyone could help me / explain me these settings. There are simply too much of them :-O

 

You're taking something beyond factory settings,on a board that has "challenges," there's no guarantee of anything You re-cap GPUs.... some voltmods on that board should be too easy for you

Oh, you are so bad! Poor ram, 2.5V ... ts ts So how it get worser from such treatment? Have you measured the degradation somehow? Do it reach lower clocks now?

 

I find it harder to hit pure MHz. I have not tried SPi32M stability or anything. Age + voltage.... not a great mix for electronics parts.

If you are lucky you can have ~400 3-2-2-1 @2.1V with fatbody.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?77442-DDR2-fat-body-D9-list&p=1100023&viewfull=1#post1100023

But usually they need more volts for it and not all can work at 3-2-2-x

2.36v or you're not running them "right"

They all die, too

I have like..a dozen ddr2 sticks that died

websmile - of course that with plenty of volts going thru the poor rams they will support some crazy 3-2-2-8 timings as shown:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/1951/7

So yes, the votage limit is challenging. But life will be booring w/o some challenges, right? Also considering the longetivity, I should probably not push too much voltage into these poor ram chips, right? 2.1V sounds about right to me, maybe 2.2V... but that it is for not hurting the longetivity...?

I find that is possible to buy G-Skill DDR2 2GB 800MHz CL4 (2x1GB) F2-6400CL4D-2GBPK rams:

http://pameti.heureka.cz/g-skill-ddr2-2gb-800mhz-cl4-2x1gb-f2-6400cl4d-2gbpk/specifikace/#section'>http://pameti.heureka.cz/g-skill-ddr2-2gb-800mhz-cl4-2x1gb-f2-6400cl4d-2gbpk/specifikace/#section

...however according to this list of specifications:

http://ramlist.i4memory.com/ddr2/'>http://ramlist.i4memory.com/ddr2/

...the chips on these rams are either Powerchip, Elpida or ProMOS, so it is an open question, how well they can overclock and if they can on lower clocks run with better timings (and how much better?)...

I.nfraR.ed - 3-3-3-8 is good, at 446MHz it is awesome, 2T not that much Also this is on AMD, so it is a bit different ballpark. Your score is pretty good never the less A good example of how, even with low-binned stuff, is possible to reach very interesting results.

http://hwbot.org/submission/2306681_i.nfrar.ed_3dmark03_geforce_fx_5900_xt_9438_marks

:celebration: :ws:

Hopefully some higher-end rams could give me better timings with lower clockrates & lover voltages. It would be interesting to know, what FSB:MEM divider will be used, when I use the DDR2 rams. Probably quite different for various CPU's and their default FSB speeds (Celeron 533MHz, P4 800MHz, Core 2 Duo 1066MHz)... So, knowing the resulting clocks might be a good start.

Meanwhile I noticed, that using highly clocked DDR2 rams (teamed with lame Celeron D 336 with Presscot core) is possible to seriously improve Cinebench 2003 score - I reached 256 points, but this guy get a 327 points:

http://hwbot.org/submission/2762290_deocer_cinebench___2003_celeron_336_327_points

Sure, 4.3GHz vs 3.4GHz play probably major role (1.264x faster clock), but still there is (even with CL4 timings) is a bit faster increase (1.277x faster) that could be explained with just CPU clock increase.

DDR2 is likely to add some speed as well then!

odbytorq -

I have about 10 sticks of Ballistix 667C3, on DFI P35/Asus X38 they do up to 400-420 CL3 with 2.2 easy...

And how far they take 3-2-2-8 timings with 2.1V? Just asking to know... because it might be very interesting to see and compare.

I fear that 2.1 on ASRock VSTA is like <2.0 on one of those above and 400 CL3 is difficult.

I cannot comment on that, because when I tried to measure what DDR2 voltage is used, then on all the empty capacitors around the rams I get either input 5V for the regulators, or 1.3V, with is too low for DDR1 or DDR2. So probably I need to measure on other caps from the bottom to see, what voltages they give on what settings.

And since I have zero DDR2 sticks to try, then it is a open question, what will happen and how DFI P35 and Asus X38 compare to ASRock 775Dual-VSTA in terms of ram overclocking / stability / voltage / possibilities.

There are stunning bios settings for the ram settings on ASRock 775Dual-VSTA, however I did not understand most of them and I have my doubts that anyone will provide usefull suggestions about how to try play with these settings in order to get maximum from given rams. Please bear in mind, that there are not only the standard timing settings (CAS, TRCD, TRP, TRAS, TRFC, TRRD, TRTP, TWTR, TWR, DRAM Bus Selection, DRAM Command Rate, DRAM Bank Interleave), but there is more that one page full of drive settings for too much things about rams, that I never seen before in my life. So I feel a bit lost there...

@trodas - I see that you're quoting my offer of Team 800 C3 I still have them, although I only tested them on Gigabyte EP45-UD3R, which has this unique ability of running mems like no other board. Besides, those Teams are binned for 800 CL3-3-3-8 @2.3V.

Yep, the timings are promising, however 2.3V is not likely to happen. So I quoted them more likely as example, that with high voltages, one can get pretty far. Also testing on unique Gigabyte EP45-UD3R mobo does nowhere near suggest, what will happen on entierly different mainboard... Of course we can try and see.

But with lower voltage are more likely that some of the Crucial Balistix ram could run stable with tight timings, right?

K404 -

You're taking something beyond factory settings,on a board that has "challenges," there's no guarantee of anything

You re right. My wording is bad. I should write about increasing the chances, not about guarantees There is no guarantee in overclocking.

You re-cap GPUs.... some voltmods on that board should be too easy for you

I recap everything, just getting the caps is hard and time-consupting process. When I get caps, even the ASRock 775Dual-VSTA get recapped. There are very good possibilities to add *PLENTY* of quality caps, increasing the stability when overclocking seriously

But the voltmods are different. I would like the board / rams to last. So I did not want to push much... Also for normal usage, I like when the board did not have added cables and stuff. So when voltmoding it, then soldering different resistor to permamently increase Vcore by 10 or 12%... that kind of voltmod I probably do.

But I did not want get into ram-frying fenzy with the voltags After all, it is very likely, that the ram clocks I will end up with, won't be that high, so it might not be that hard to find rams that can do really tight timings.

Have you measured the degradation somehow? Do it reach lower clocks now?

I find it harder to hit pure MHz.

Hmmm. That sounds more likely that your capacitors are dying, but that is just my wild quess.

I have not tried SPi32M stability or anything.

Sadly. This is quite fast test of basic stability. What is SPi32M stable, it is mostly pretty stable for everything else. Only once I hit an exception from this rule... but that is for another thread: http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?p=382257

Age + voltage.... not a great mix for electronics parts.

Yep, witch is why I want to keep the voltages relatively low. There is lifetime warranty on these G-Skill DDR2 2GB 800MHz CL4 (2x1GB) F2-6400CL4D-2GBPK rams:

http://pameti.heureka.cz/g-skill-ddr2-2gb-800mhz-cl4-2x1gb-f2-6400cl4d-2gbpk/

...but they have either Powerchip, Elpida or ProMOS chips, according to this:

http://ramlist.i4memory.com/ddr2/

So while I like their operating voltage (1.9 to 2.0V), it is pretty unclear if they can run at tighter timings while working on slower clocks...

frag_ -

If you are lucky you can have ~400 3-2-2-1 @2.1V with fatbody.

From the link:

My Corsair 5400UL v1.2 sticks use MT47H64M8BT-37E (rev. A) chips and they are able to hit DDR960 speed with fairly tight 4-2-2-1 latencies. They can also take voltage up to 2.9V (this guy is crazy!)

My Corsair 8000UL sticks used MT47H64M8BT-3 (rev. A) chips, and they worked just fine at DDR800 3-2-2-1 with only 2.1V. Mushkin XP6400 seem to use the identical chips, but they can´t even post with 3-2-2-8 latencies with 2.3V (according to Legitreviews). So there is quite much difference between the steppings...

I recon that only OCZ and Corsair first low latency DDR2 sticks use those BT-37E chips, since they are already discontinued.

 

Wintec has also used those 3.7ns chips in their AmpX 5400 sticks.

 

When I said "They can also take voltage up to 2.9V" I didn´t mean that they can stand or work longer periods with voltages that high. I have fed them 2.9V during a VERY shot benching session. The heatspreaders were stripped off and the sticks were cooled by 80mm 8000rpm Delta fan (still insane)

 

When I asked Corsair about the maximum safe voltage for these sticks, they told me that no one really knows how much voltage these sticks really can take. Micron has rated the D9 chips for 1.8V so 62% overvoltage is a bit high

So what I take from this is, that getting early Corsair 8000UL sticks gives me best chance for stable operation at tight latency 3-2-2 (I believe that the 1 at TRAS is error, this is not even possible to set in bios!) with 2.1V.

But does such sticks exist in 2x1024MB sizes?

Schmuckley -

2.36v or you're not running them "right"

They all die, too

I have like..a dozen ddr2 sticks that died

Well, thanks for advice on how to *NOT* run these poor memory sticks I woud like to have them for a *LONG* time and run them well, so... I stay away from 2.36V. If Micron D9Gxx chips are rated for 1.8V, then it makes sense that they die, especially if the voltage regulator on your mobo is not very good, producing voltage ripple and spikes ... witch mobo is the killer for your poor sticks, mate?

Avoid the 1.8v sticks, those are the newer ICs. The RAM you want will be rated at 2.2v. At least.... if it's Crucial Ballistix, it will be.

I don't think it's my caps new set of RAM... MHz are fine... eventually, the MHz fall away. I am only interested in max clocks on DDR2, SPi32M is IC stress for no benefit.