POLICE department INTO hwbot?.... [Archive]

hipro5

01-04-2008, 14:59

Here's an e-mail two of my team members have got from hwbot Moderator/s.....

Hi guys!

We moderators at the HWbot are suspecting that you three guys have used
same hardware in some bench session. You have submitted almost similar
results to each account. That is not allowed in HWbot. Only the OWNER
of the parts can submit result. I know that you have a lot of sponsored
hardware, but that doesn't change this situation.

You have two (2) days time to fix your results. After that time limit I
will block two of those results and only the best result can stay. But
that best result must be from the same user in every benchmark. You
decide who it will be.

Thank you and I hope you understand this!

-xxx- HWbot HOF moderator.

ARE we making jokes here or what?......

According to this:

http://www.hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1352

Yes he can, the only limitation hwbot places on shared hardware is in the event of a team bench session...like bazx is inquiring about. In that case, the method Rich layed out above is preferred, or alternatively, all the results from that day may be uploaded to a single team account. The problem arises when during team sessions, more than one user uploads a result from the same rig on the same day, that is not allowed.

Again, it's not. As long as the bencher posting the result did all the work himself hwbot doesn't care. How do we discover team submissions? When several results come into the DB at nearly the same time using the same hardware from members of the same team, or when the screen shots are identical. Of course we cannot find all the occurances when this happens, the way hwbot works trust is given to the user. Hwbot can only do it's best to help keep things clean and make a fair and fun competition for everyone.

Yes you can do that Nazar, remember the key here is, if you do the bench the result belongs to you and you alone.

....it's OPPOSITE to this in the e-mail:

"Only the OWNER
of the parts can submit result."

....again:

"As long as the bencher posting the result did all the work himself hwbot doesn't care."

.....and....

"Only the OWNER
of the parts can submit result."

Now.....can someone explain us please what's going on here?....

I'll start....

PCMark2005:

1. User hipro5

http://service.futuremark.com/compare?pcm05=1265493

It was done with:
a. Blitz Extreme DDR3 mobo
b. 8800Ultra on LN2
c. Cellshock DDR3 PC14400 BLUE KIT (BETA) Ram modules
d. 3 x iRams - one mine and 2 of gprhellas'
e. was done on 12-13-2007

2. User gprhellas

http://service.futuremark.com/compare?pcm05=1278584

It was done with:
a. P5E64 WS PRO DDR3 mobo
b. 8800 GTX ON AIR with a gprhellas' "heasink patent" :D
c. Cellshock DDR3 PC14400 BLACK KIT RETAIL Ram modules
d. 3 x iRams - one mine and 2 of gprhellas'
e. was done on 12-20-2007

3. User elefsinaras

http://service.futuremark.com/compare?pcm05=1275704

It was done with:
a. Blitz Formula DDR2 mobo
b. 8800 GTX on it's stock heatsink cooling
c. Team Xtreme RETAIL Ram modules
d. 2 x iRams - one mine and one of gprhellas'
e. was done on 12-18-2007

Almost the same hardware was used for the other resaults too...

Not to write a lot more, please ask what else bench you want to ask about.....

We have:
2 x ASUS Blitz Extreme mobos
3 x ASUS P5E3 WS Pro mobos
2 x ASUS Blitz Formula mobos
2 x ASUS P5E64 WS Pro mobos
and some others like DFI, Foxconn, etc.

so there are about 13 - 15 mobos for 5 USERS (let's say)....

We have:
5 x 8800 ULtras
one on air and all the others moded for cascades/LN2

We have:
4 x 8800GTX
2 moded for LN2/cascade and 2 on air

6 x ATI HD2900XT
2 moded for LN2
2 moded for LN2 AND air (with gprhellas heatsink pattent - please gprhellas upload some fotos of it -
and 2 with stock cooling
EDIT cuz I forgot to write my 5 x 2900XTs..... 2 was sent to me by macci (PM him and ask him), 2 was sent to me by ASUS Taiwan and one as a gift from my friend k|ngp|n..... :D
ALL OF THEM ARE FLASHED WITH THE EXACT SAME BIOS at 850/950(990) IF this is what you mean....

We have:
6 x LN2 containers for CPUs
5 x LN2 containers for VGAs

We have:
8 x 1GB CellShock DDR3 Ram modules (one Blue kit mine and the others are gprhellas', phsilos' etc.

We have:
7 - 9 QX9650 CPUs (and still counting up)

We have:
OVER 16GB of 1GB Ram modules of DDR2

We have:
4 x LN2 dewars
1 x 26lt
1 x 30lt
1 x 50lt
1 x 90lt

We have:
EACH ONE OF US
Many DDR Maximizers.. :D

We have:
Many HDs and TOO MANY DELTA fans each one of us

We have:
1200Watts PSUs by hipro-tech
1000Watts PSUs by Silverstone
1250Watts PSUs by Cooler Master
and MANY others

EACH user has benched ALONE and ONLY.....

only giorgos th. was helped by me and ONLY for pouring LN2 into the container.....

Now please tell us what more do you want from us?.....Thanks..... :)

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/QX9650_RETAIL/5_RETAILS.jpg

Would you like to start posting pictures from all the hardware that we own?.....If so, tell it to us and we plesently will.... :)

.

richba5tard

01-04-2008, 15:07

hipro5

01-04-2008, 15:11

OK.....Let's start talking now.... :)

Above there are 5 x QX9650 for 4 users as you say PLUS another 3 of them in tsan's place PLUS my ES....Is it OK this?.... :)

Now ask what else you want and I'll answer... :)

EDIT:
A simple example with the EXACT SAME CPU USED at the EXACT SAME DAY.....

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=682457

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=682609

SO according to your words, ONE of these users MUST take down his result......No?..... :)

GoriLLakoS

01-04-2008, 15:23

Limiting the results by this way :

- only the owner of the processor may submit scores in processor related benches
- only the owner of the videocard may submit scores in videocard related benches

IMO you will have to limit the cooling,RAM,Mobo etc too.
But you can see that the HOT members do not use the same hardware except some ecxeptions..

Benching 2 guys with the same hw but using their own skills is legal or ilegal?

Massman

01-04-2008, 15:26

We're currently working on a set of improved rules as we have noticed that sponsored hardware / team hardware is really making thing a lot more difficult.

I hear what your problem is (and I assume you can understand why this is a problem for us), but at this moment I have yet to find a solution for this issue.

Question: You're talking about "we won". Is the hardware property of the team?

Massman

01-04-2008, 15:28

Benching 2 guys with the same hw but using their own skills is legal or ilegal?

Benching with the exact same hardware (for 3D: the exact same vga's and for 2d: the exact same cpu) is indeed illegal as stated in the article about the new subteam rules.

hipro5

01-04-2008, 15:30

The harware it's not team's hardware.....It's user's hardware.... :)

.....but as a team, we help each other by lenting them some things....

Massman

01-04-2008, 15:31

So, can you tell me who owns what hardware? :)

hipro5

01-04-2008, 15:49

So, can you tell me who owns what hardware? :)

Which one of ALL these (and much more)?.... :D

For example, I own 2 x Blitz Extreme DDR3 Mobo BUT I benched with ONLY one of them......SO as you claim, the other one is "free" for someone else to bench......No?..... ;)

Massman

01-04-2008, 15:55

Which one of ALL these (and much more)?.... :D

For example, I own 2 x Blitz Extreme DDR3 Mobo BUT I benched with ONLY one of them......SO as you claim, the other one is "free" for someone else to bench......No?..... ;)

You pay start with the GF88 and X29 and yorkies, I reckon that will already take a while :)

hipro5

01-04-2008, 16:02

You pay start with the GF88 and X29 and yorkies, I reckon that will already take a while :)

Which ATI's of all?.....
I own 5 of them
gprhellas has 2 or 3 of them
tsan has another two
Gorilakos another two

CPUs.....I own TWO (and THREE up to now - from today evening I will own 2)
tsan has two or three
gprhellas another one or two

8800s
I have here 4 of them
gprhellas has another 2 plus a GTS 512 now
tsan has another 2
Gorilakos has 4 or 5

Now sorry BUT I HAVE to leave you a bit (till the night) cuz I'll start benching with LN2 to take down the SINGLE VGA Aquamark3 and 2k1 that k|ngp|in took away from me..... :D :o

Massman

01-04-2008, 16:07

What does Elefsinaras and Giorgios th. own then?

Good luck with you WR attempts ;)

SF3D

01-04-2008, 18:18

Well, maybe my e-mail wasn't written in best possible form, but why you Hipro are here to clear things out. That e-mail wasn't addressed to you?

Those three users (elefsinaras, Giorgos, Tsan) benched together and submit almost similar results with same hardware. If nobody owns that hardware it doesn't make this situation any different.

Only one of those three users can submit the best score from that bench session. It is clear practise and it is fair to everyone. We have done same kind of decisions with other users and they don't have problem with it. Why you can't accept this rule?

No hard feelings, just fair play to everyone.

cyclone

01-04-2008, 19:41

Hey, guys! What are these things all about? Somebody just decided to decrease the H.O.T.'s hwboint score in any possible way?

Does it really make sence who owns this or that hardware? I completely agree with the team-runs-rules, or with benchhing on exactly the same hardware rig by several people at a different time. I suppose team runs is clear for everyone who is able to read the rules; the second situation example: a certain hardware rig on Monday is used by X-member, on Wednesday - by Y, in a week - by Z. There may be some slight differences like using another memory modules, a 200 GB HDD instead of 80 GB, cooling the VGA with Ph-Ch, DIce or LN2 etc. This one is clear - the situation when the guys (everybody by him-/herself) make good use of the same rig & then post their results to hwbot is not allowed cuz it's a kind of cheating.

But when the benchers use different rigs (CPUs, MoBos, VGAs) - what's the problem? And does it really matter who owns the hardware which was used if it was not benched twice?

Or even when the components of the rig are of the same kind, can you definitely prove that it is actually the same hardware? I can't. Probably somewhen the IT manufacturers will flash every part with it's own S/N that could be viewed with CPU-Z, for example...
OK, let's get back to the sublect at hand. I suppose you won't suspect me in cheating if I will use exactly the same HW rig which <b>hipro5</b> used while making one of his records.. The reasons are clear - we live in different countries, we have never met before and we even don't know each other, we are not familiar. Then why should you suspect a few H.O.T. members? Just because all of them live in Greece? Even if everybody of them owns almost the same rig (QX9650 - because it's one of the fastest and most promising CPUs at the moment; ASUS Maximus Extreme - cuz it really is the best overclocking MoBo; GF8800Ultra - the fastest VGA) they shouldn't be allowed to post their scores at hwbot just because they all live in the same country/city?

So guys don't be silly... I'm a lawyer, and I know one of the main principles of jurisprudence: a person is innocent till his/her fault will not be proven. Can you really prove us that Greeks used the same hardware, benched together and posted the cheating results? Can U make us to believe this? I don't think so, do you?

Those three users (elefsinaras, Giorgos, Tsan) benched together and submit almost similar results with same hardware. If nobody owns that hardware it doesn't make this situation any different.
Only one of those three users can submit the best score from that bench session. It is clear practise and it is fair to everyone. We have done same kind of decisions with other users and they don't have problem with it. Why you can't accept this rule?
so I think that the upper SF3D's quote-statement is unfounded, and can't be accepted as a valid proof till trustworthy facts are not granted.

I understand that hwbot moderators should often rely on honesty of the benchers till we don't have a better cheat-hunting system here, so let's do this way and save time and nerves of each other.
In other case almost everybody could be suspected without a valid proof, and the rivals could slander even a conscientious bencher.
Hwbot Crew, don't make a stupid precedent please!

Obijuan83

01-04-2008, 20:20

Hey, guys! What are these things all about? Somebody just decided to decrease the H.O.T.'s hwboint score in any possible way?

Does it really make sence who owns this or that hardware? I completely agree with the team-runs-rules, or with benchhing on exactly the same hardware rig by several people at a different time. I suppose team runs is clear for everyone who is able to read the rules; the second situation example: a certain hardware rig on Monday is used by X-member, on Wednesday - by Y, in a week - by Z. There may be some slight differences like using another memory modules, a 200 GB HDD instead of 80 GB, cooling the VGA with Ph-Ch, DIce or LN2 etc. This one is clear - the situation when the guys (everybody by him-/herself) make good use of the same rig & then post their results to hwbot is not allowed cuz it's a kind of cheating.

But when the benchers use different rigs (CPUs, MoBos, VGAs) - what's the problem? And does it really matter who owns the hardware which was used if it was not benched twice?

Or even when the components of the rig are of the same kind, can you definitely prove that it is actually the same hardware? I can't. Probably somewhen the IT manufacturers will flash every part with it's own S/N that could be viewed with CPU-Z, for example...
OK, let's get back to the sublect at hand. I suppose you won't suspect me in cheating if I will use exactly the same HW rig which <b>hipro5</b> used while making one of his records.. The reasons are clear - we live in different countries, we have never met before and we even don't know each other, we are not familiar. Then why should you suspect a few H.O.T. members? Just because all of them live in Greece? Even if everybody of them owns almost the same rig (QX9650 - because it's one of the fastest and most promising CPUs at the moment; ASUS Maximus Extreme - cuz it really is the best overclocking MoBo; GF8800Ultra - the fastest VGA) they shouldn't be allowed to post their scores at hwbot just because they all live in the same country/city?

So guys don't be silly... I'm a lawyer, and I know one of the main principles of jurisprudence: a person is innocent till his/her fault will not be proven. Can you really prove us that Greeks used the same hardware, benched together and posted the cheating results? Can U make us to believe this? I don't think so, do you?

so I think that the upper SF3D's quote-statement is unfounded, and can't be accepted as a valid proof till trustworthy facts are not granted.

I understand that hwbot moderators should often rely on honesty of the benchers till we don't have a better cheat-hunting system here, so let's do this way and save time and nerves of each other.
In other case almost everybody could be suspected without a valid proof, and the rivals could slander even a conscientious bencher.
Hwbot Crew, don't make a stupid precedent please!

P.S. Don't think that I like H.O.T. more than Team OCX.. I'm for Justice and Fair Play only.

Open your eyes and read

http://www.thelab.gr/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44921&perpage=20&pagenumber=7

GoriLLakoS

01-04-2008, 21:06

The main problem...maybe...it is that he does not know to read greek.

But, i am totally sure now who made this a sooooooooooo big topic.

Guys, the other 3 guys did not benched together...all of them are going to hipro's lab where the LN2 is placed..and they are benching alone.
Hipro is only pouring LN2.

cyclone

01-04-2008, 21:22

The main problem...maybe...it is that he does not know to read greek.[/qoute]
Ooops... English variant, please :)

[quote]Guys, the other 3 guys did not benched together...all of them are going to hipro's lab where the LN2 is placed..and they are benching alone.
Hipro is only pouring LN2.
IMHO nothing changed radically, especially when all the bench sessions had taken place at a different time & on multiple hardware rigs. To my mind, it's up to the Hellas guys to decide how the results should be posted... or many other scores present at hwbot at the moment should be treated the same way: the only one shall stay, cuz it's quite easy & possible to find some similar scores/situations in other teams. The only things you need is some time, being a polyglot and having a desire to do that :)))

o polonos

01-04-2008, 21:40

The main problem...maybe...it is that he does not know to read greek.
But, i am totally sure now who made this a sooooooooooo big topic.

Ι wasn't involved with this matter. In addition, none of the HWBOT Moderators have seen the thread (or a part of it) whose link obijuan posted. This is open to all mods to tell you if i say the truth.

Massman

01-04-2008, 23:01

...

No one is trying to decrease HOT's points at all. The crew (and other users) just wondered how it's possible that so many members of one team score that high with pretty much the same setup. We have set a few ground rules regarding team runs and hardware sharing and those must be respected in any way. We have seen in the last few days/weeks that these rules are not covering all bases, so we're rewriting those again.

Can we be 100% sure that someone is not respecting those rules? No. We will always partially rely on what the users submit and always need to be careful when handling this kind of situations. That's why we did not block the results right away and tried to contact the users first.

I understand your background as a lawyer and I fully understand the principles of "innocent until proven guilty", but ... how on earth are we EVER going to provide evidence when we're not attending the bench session? We have to rely on what we see and try to make the correct conclusion. In fact, it should be really easy for us: if no user did something that can be seen as suspicious, we won't need result moderators. But sometimes we have certain circumstances in which users are confused by the rules or submit a wrong result by accident or even try to abuse hwbot to to gain more respect. These are the situation in which WE have to ask to the users what's happening :). (btw: this is purely theory and none of these lines are referring to HOT!)

This last point can be in bold: WHY do people think -ONCE AGAIN- that HWBot is biased by certain forums???. For once and for all, HWBot is impartial when it comes to deciding what results should be considered suspicious.

If people have ideas of how the rules can be improved, you can always let us know.

To get back on topic: waiting untill Hipro is back from 3DMarking (:D) and answer my last question. :)

Nazar

01-04-2008, 23:42

bazx

01-04-2008, 23:47

"only the owner of the processor may submit scores in processor related benches"

how does this work with ES chips as intel or amd remain the owner of es chips

or is it to who ever it is given to

thanks baz

Massman

01-05-2008, 00:11

May be it will sound idiotic, but what U think about submition of CPU/VGA/Mobo serial number photo :-)
Cause my team members (including me) purchased 3 QX9650 the same day (as soon as CPU's finaly reached Moscow) and submited results within a few days.

That is in fact a very clever idea :). Good thinking!

"only the owner of the processor may submit scores in processor related benches"

how does this work with ES chips as intel or amd remain the owner of es chips

or is it to who ever it is given to

thanks baz

Second question has a positive response - Yes, the owner is (in this case) the person to who the cpu has been given to (for review or benches or anything else).

GoriLLakoS

01-05-2008, 01:26

Ι wasn't involved with this matter. In addition, none of the HWBOT Moderators have seen the thread (or a part of it) whose link obijuan posted. This is open to all mods to tell you if i say the truth.

@polonos I didn't tell anything about you...i think it was clear about obijuan.

But i cannot understand why in every forum ,english and greek, you are always telling me that you are not involved with matter regarding H.O.T.

Have you ever been involved to such a think and you are afraid of accusing you about something?

Strange things....

o polonos

01-05-2008, 07:03

@polonos I didn't tell anything about you...i think it was clear about obijuan.

But i cannot understand why in every forum ,english and greek, you are always telling me that you are not involved with matter regarding H.O.T.

Have you ever been involved to such a think and you are afraid of accusing you about something?

Strange things....
Moderators have rules m8
We don't take any action when somebody (team or just one user) can take it personal. And to be honnest many times im dont take any actions with your team to do not start this war again and again.
We dont hunting HOT or something and that's the message from me ;)

bazx

01-05-2008, 08:53

ok thanks Massman

i have one more question

if say intel lent me a compleat rig say a sculltail to review

and it came with 2x 9775,ram,m/b and 3x sli gts and had to go back to them after a week

would i be able to keep the bench results

or would the results belong to intel as they are still the owner of the rig
and would want it back after the review

thanks baz

Massman

01-05-2008, 08:56

As Intel has lend you that rig for review, it's your property for that week. All bench results are your property as well, so there's no problem in submitting those results :)

bazx

01-05-2008, 08:57

thanks massman for you time

baz

Thickbrit

01-05-2008, 11:37

Even serial number photo's would not stop determined abuse of the system.People could bench the hardware,then 'sell' the hardware to another bencher,then possibly even 'buy' it back.Another issue is shared hardware,for instance Bazx and i recently bought a qx9650 between us,to keep the costs of benchmarking down.It quite legitimately belongs to both of us and although we'd never bench it on the same rig at the same time,we would expect to both be able to submit scores with it.We also both have 8800 ultra's too,so you can see how easy it would appear that we bench the same rig,but we don't.This really is an impossible task to try to police results and i don't actually have any answers to it for now.I think an extremely detailed system description on hwbot (not forum) can go a long way to proving differences in system setup.Other than that,little can be done,except relying on the integrity of individual members.Upon reflection,maybe hwbot teams was a step too far and we should have remained individual benchmarkers,as we once were.I don't know.

Massman

01-05-2008, 11:48

Actually, HWBot (well ... Mbot as it was named then) started as a forum league :) ... but that completely off topic.

AN7 OverClocker

01-05-2008, 21:27

As Intel has lend you that rig for review, it's your property for that week. All bench results are your property as well, so there's no problem in submitting those results :)

So..
If someone benches @ hipro's lab for 2 weeks own's the results.
Right?

And the problem with the results is........what?

Giorgios.th "benched" at hipro's lab for 2 weeks as other members of HOT,like elefsinaras etc but not at the same time/day and the same h/w...similar but not the same.

Monstru

01-05-2008, 22:41

Oh my goodness problems, problems and more problems :(

It seems that it is harder and harder to please everyone with the way HWBot works, and somehow you guys have to think a whole new set of rules to keep things fair for everyone.

If you ask me, I disagreed with the rule that is being discussed here from the beginning, because it has some faults.

I agree with the idea that same hardware shouldn't be used many times to bring more points to a team.
I disagree with the idea that only the owner of the hardware should be able to get points using that hardware, for two reasons:

1. Hardware is being bought and sold, so if you want to stop more people to get points using the same "champion CPU", for instance, you can't, because someone who benches while he has that CPU earns some points, and someone that benches after he bought that CPU from the first person also earns some points, and everything is perfectly legal accordingly to HWB rules.....

2. If somebody uses a CPU lend from a friend for some benching sessions and he gets some nice results, he deserve those results, because he worked for them. In the same way, the friend that lend him that CPU also deserves his points from his benching sessions, because he also worked for his. So each one of them deserve those points. The only "entity" that should not benefit from the cumulation of points is their team.

REMEMBER THIS...HWBot is about rewarding and motivating people's skill, not the purchasing of hardware. That's why I think that the points should be awarded to a person for his skill, not for owning a certain CPU or GPU

That being said, I have a suggestion that will please nobody, but it will make things FAIR. Let team members bench the same hardware (top hardware is really expensive, and there are persons who can't afford some things, while they are more skilled and better clockers than others who can afford expensive HW). Let each team member have it's points. BUT use the actual rule regarding those points only for the team, so each guy can have his points BUT only the points for the best score will add to the team's total points

In this way, the true spirit of HWBot will be respected, and the skilled overclockers will be rewarded, and the teams will not “cheat”. I know that all the teams suffer a little bit while reading these thoughts, but let’s keep it fair for everybody and don’t hurt the little guys because of the ego fight that is always taking place between the overclocking mammoths.

Funny thing is that I have a lot of ideas about the many rules of HWB, including benching old hardware (specifically old GPU’s with new CPU’s and stuff like that) and many others, but I am very lazy to write them all down :D

Massman

01-05-2008, 23:43

So..
If someone benches @ hipro's lab for 2 weeks own's the results.
Right?

And the problem with the results is........what?

Giorgios.th "benched" at hipro's lab for 2 weeks as other members of HOT,like elefsinaras etc but not at the same time/day and the same h/w...similar but not the same.

No, not correct here :). The quote you are referring to is about sponsored stuff provided by a manufacturer to 1 person.

If someone benched 3D at Hipro's lab with Hipro's videocards the result belongs to Hipro. That's the reason why I asked to specify who owns the hardware.

Gorillakos, if you read this, drop me a message on MSN, need to ask something :).

Massman

01-05-2008, 23:59

...

Yeap, pleasing everyone if pretty much undoable, however that does not mean that we should not stop rethinking rules and guidelines. HWBot is still very young as a bencher's platform and we still have to get rid of a few faults we couldn't think of in these 12-15 months.

First of all, we are of course only interested in the skill of the bencher, not in the size of his wallet and I can follow your thoughts perfectly. However, I have some remarks:
- We're not against buying and selling hardware, not at all, in despite of what you might think when reading the serial number idea. The idea is still just an idea and before we could even think of using it, we must work around some issues like you've mentioned (golden chips are sold to one another).
- Lending chips and cards to fellow benchers seems very harmless and is in fact very natural. But, how would you feel if one day you have the second place in one category and the next week you're sixth, just because the one golden chip has been lend out to five members from the same team?
- Your solution on above problem is a good solution, absolutely, but doesn't fit HWBot's intial policy when creating the hardware points, namely presenting a place where both the big shots ánd the little guys could bench together. We want to encourage those who only have 20 points to keep benching for the team. If you change the team's points rules to "only points for the best score", the little guys will have no challenge anymore.

Monstru, please write down your ideas and contact me somehow as most of your ideas are very very good :).

AN7 OverClocker

01-06-2008, 05:28

No, not correct here :). The quote you are referring to is about sponsored stuff provided by a manufacturer to 1 person.

If someone benched 3D at Hipro's lab with Hipro's videocards the result belongs to Hipro. That's the reason why I asked to specify who owns the hardware.

Gorillakos, if you read this, drop me a message on MSN, need to ask something :).

Lets have an example.

I 'm benching at hipro's lab all 3dmarks with my videocards but with hipro's cpu+mobo+ram+etc.

The result belongs to --- ?

Remember that hipro posted a photo with 5 C2Q extreme cpu's at his lab.

@Monstru

You have a great point m8:)

Massman

01-06-2008, 10:11

If you're benching with your gpu's, you should upload the results of 3D benchmarks :)

Monstru

01-06-2008, 11:15

Yeap, pleasing everyone if pretty much undoable, however that does not mean that we should not stop rethinking rules and guidelines. HWBot is still very young as a bencher's platform and we still have to get rid of a few faults we couldn't think of in these 12-15 months.

I agree with that, at one point all rules should be final, and there is some work to do before we get there.

Lending chips and cards to fellow benchers seems very harmless and is in fact very natural. But, how would you feel if one day you have the second place in one category and the next week you're sixth, just because the one golden chip has been lend out to five members from the same team?

Well....that is a fact of life, and it isn't the first time it would happen (not that I would have second place or anything like that :D ) I'm still thinking to a solution for this situation.

Your solution on above problem is a good solution, absolutely, but doesn't fit HWBot's intial policy when creating the hardware points, namely presenting a place where both the big shots ánd the little guys could bench together. We want to encourage those who only have 20 points to keep benching for the team. If you change the team's points rules to "only points for the best score", the little guys will have no challenge anymore.

Well....first of all, the really big guys should be an example to us all, and they should not encourage swapping good hardware just to get points for the team. Second of all, I was talking about the best result with one piece of hardware (let's say QX9650 sn: xxx, not all QX9650's that all the members of one team have). I am sure that my solution is not flawless, but it has some truth in it, so maybe some version of it could help end this debate.

And you should think about another thing....Most of the problems I see people fighting about are caused by team rankings...Maybe we should think more about these rules, because I see some respected people really beginning to fight over some minor ego matters, and it is a pity... I prefer to consider them legends, to look up to them and learn something from their experience, not to see them fighting over a handful of points. Big guys should acknowledge their position, should be more aware about their influence, should have a higher moral standard than we small guys do, even if this is just a human nature issue in the end. And if they have a hard time doing that, HWBot should be the all knowingly grandfather that gently taps them on their back and helps them come back on the right track with good, clear, consistent rules. He...he....he...

Monstru, please write down your ideas and contact me somehow as most of your ideas are very very good .

Thank you for your words. I promise I shall write some things down and get in contact with you as soon as I get back from my holiday, which will be one of these days. Now I am still trying to recover from the new years eve party :D

mariosalice

01-08-2008, 01:38

You apparently don't like team working.
Then why do you have team rankings at hwbot?

You want proof that we own our hardware but on the other hand you say we can borrow our hardware from Intel or Nvidia or ATI or ...
Why not from one of our team mates?

You excluded Vantage from hwbot because we have to pay 8$, but you demand a proof of ownership for our CPU or our Video cards.
Then again you alone decide who brakes this rule and you ask for proofs of ownership.
No one else can check the ownership and the validity of the submitted results.
Why? Rules should be equal for everyone.
It is apparent from your latest acts that you do not want to be fare with your team members.

I believe that all you wanted to do is to prevent someone who benches all day and night to give away his/her own great second and third results to other members of his/her team.

Well, find a way to exclude those cases if you please.
Though you have no idea how you might accomplish this and I think you shouldn't.
You accepted the idea of team working in the first place, so you have to accept the consequences.

The moment you delete team rankings there will be no reason why someone might give away his/her own results.

My 2 cents.

JimmyFox

01-08-2008, 02:35

I agree with Mariosalice. If teamwork is not approved, then why are there teams in hwbot?

About that thing of publishing the serial number of the hardware.
I think it's at least... insufficient. Users buy and sell their hardware all the time.
Let's say I post the serial number of my A64 X2 4400+. I am rock stable @ 2660MHz. All my benchmarks are run at that frequency. So, let's say I sell this CPU to a friend of mine. He uses water cooling or something else and he achieves a rock stable frequency of 2800MHz and then he posts his results at hwbot. What happens then? I would really like to know. Should I have given him a receipt? How about publishing the receipts from our hardware purchases?

Maxi

01-08-2008, 02:58

Sorry for my late reply...

Hipro I have a question, is what Bill said here true?

Hipro is only pouring LN2.

If so then these results are only valid when posted to a 'Team Account', that is an account you setup for all H.O.T. community bench sessions. It's pretty simple, when you bench alone the results are yours. When you bench with someone else the results go into the Team account. These rules are designed to make things fun for everyone and allow for the frequent community bench sessions without causing unfair advantage to all HWBot teams. Remember it's up to the users and teams to keep the competiton fair and fun ;) :D

If you have any questions please let me/any hwbot staff know.

Thanks,

maxi

mariosalice

01-08-2008, 04:00

Sorry for my late reply...

Hipro I have a question, is what Bill said here true?

If so then these results are only valid when posted to a 'Team Account', that is an account you setup for all H.O.T. community bench sessions. It's pretty simple, when you bench alone the results are yours. When you bench with someone else the results go into the Team account. These rules are designed to make things fun for everyone and allow for the frequent community bench sessions without causing unfair advantage to all HWBot teams. Remember it's up to the users and teams to keep the competiton fair and fun ;) :D

If you have any questions please let me/any hwbot staff know.

Thanks,

maxi

Very smart tip.
Please do reset all LN2 results to team accounts since I know nobody benching alone, with LN2.
There are videos out there from most known overclockers showing this.
Or ask them the same way you asked Hipro5.
I was there watching.
Do I count also? :ws:

Maxi

01-08-2008, 05:37

Many people bench alone with LN2, including myself.

Let me clarify, please read this from mtzki.

http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=104

Joint bench session results should be posted to either a team account, or a single user account only.

Deanzo

01-08-2008, 05:41

I believe that all you wanted to do is to prevent someone who benches all day and night to give away his/her own great second and third results to other members of his/her team.

Well, find a way to exclude those cases if you please.
Though you have no idea how you might accomplish this and I think you shouldn't.
You accepted the idea of team working in the first place, so you have to accept the consequences.

I'm sorry, but what the hell.

You honestly believe it's all right to pass on lower scores to other team members ?

Using each others HW is one thing, but using other members scores :mad:

Please do reset all LN2 results to team accounts since I know nobody benching alone, with LN2.
There are videos out there from most known overclockers showing this.
Or ask them the same way you asked Hipro5.
I was there watching.
Do I count also? :ws:

I do!
Have to, no team members live in my City. In fact none of the other benching team members live in NZ :(
Two pots on your own is not that hard.

AN7 OverClocker

01-08-2008, 06:45

or a single user account only.
The user that benched...not the other who was just controlling the LN2.
I dont think thats a "team benching session"

I'm sorry, but what the hell.

You honestly believe it's all right to pass on lower scores to other team members ?

Using each others HW is one thing, but using other members scores :mad:

I do!
Have to, no team members live in my City. In fact none of the other benching team members live in NZ :(
Two pots on your own is not that hard.

I think you misunderstand the post of mariosalice.

Deanzo

01-08-2008, 08:00

I think you misunderstand the post of mariosalice.

I hope that is the case.

Massman

01-08-2008, 08:48

...

I'm sorry, but we are trying to think out a solution and then you come posting this?

First of all, team rankings is what it all started from. Second, why should we drop the team rankings exactly? Because we can't control things? As far as I know, we have 250 teams where we have NO problems at all.

Since the beginning we have ALWAYS stated that we want people to bench together, but that they should follow some rules to get the rankings and the points okay. Since day, we always tried to follow those rules and have managed to do so pretty well, we only had a few big cases.

Now, we have this problem and suddenly everyone asks us why it is not allowed to share hardware in this way? To be honnest, I find it disturbing that you are actually saying "you can't know, so you can't judge". In the end, we judge if the scores are allowed on HWBot (so following the guidelines) or should not be allowed ('cause not following the guidelines). These are the rules of HWBot which we NEED in order to keep things clean :).

For instance, do you think the following situation should be approved?

You have an insane E2180, which exceeds all other cpu's except mine. I have a golden chip which runs about 150MHz faster than yours. There's no problem, you're second and beaten by a better cpu.
BUT, today I have invited all my OCTB-friends and I will let them, one by one, bench the cpu on their system with their tweaks, in total the 19 members of my team.
Remember: it's their skill which is being tested.
So the day after the benching, all upload their score of the E2180 and turns out ... you're not 2nd anymore, you moved to place 21th, having no points at all (loss will be: 7 benches x 10 points = 70 points). Will you still be satisfied by the fact that "all used their own system, just their own skill"?

I agree, it might be a little over the edge, but this is simply what we have to deal with when redesigning the hardware sharing rules. If we DON'T set any rules, the rich teams will win ALL, which is NOT what we want.

Oh, for the record: teams are all about sharing knowledge and helping each other and helping the team with your effort on your system. ;)

EDIT:// Would someone ask Hipro to finish his thread here? I have asked him a question on page2 which still has to be answered :)

Monstru

01-08-2008, 09:36

I like team benching, for us little guys is way better to bench with a friend, than alone. Nobody was talking about "dropping team benching", so I don't know why you people even talk about this.

Unfortunately Massman has a point with the example above. I know that that wouldn't happen in a million years, but seeing how the teams do everything in their power to get in front...I am beginning to have doubts. Remember....I agree with sharing hardware, but there has to be a way in which what Massman said above should be prevented, and I fear that we cannot count only on everybody's good will :(

mariosalice

01-08-2008, 13:28

I'm sorry, but we are trying to think out a solution and then you come posting this? ....
The idea of team benching is not a new one.
I know many teams benching together for a long time ago.

You feel that benching with the same golden hardware should not be approved.
No problem. You can easily design a new rule, put it on the forum for discussion, improve it, modify the rules, and then enforce them from now on.

What did you do?
You said you "suspect" some results were made with the same golden hardware and at the same time you decided to block the results.
Then you released new guidelines.
- only the owner of the processor may submit scores in processor related benches
- only the owner of the videocard may submit scores in videocard related benches
Enforce them from now on if you please. Not on past scores.
I feel you have no way to prove whether those rules are applied or not.
You can only decide by yourself alone which scores you approve or not based on the moon phase.
Is this the kind of hwbot that you want?

The above guidelines have nothing to do with the golden CPU example you gave.
I have nothing against team working and sharing or combining hardware.
Today one team has the golden CPU, tomorrow another team gets it.
Though in some cases it's not the golden CPU that makes the difference but the GOLDEN TEAM.
I like team working and I like those golden teams that make regular CPUs look like golden.
Don't you?

It is not a matter of rich teams either.
Rich teams do not straggle to find hardware.
Sponsored and rich members of a team can afford to have their own hardware and bench.
Your new guidelines do not affect those persons.
On the contrary they only affect poor teams and the poor members of a team.

Massman

01-08-2008, 14:32

You feel that benching with the same golden hardware should not be approved.
No problem. You can easily design a new rule, put it on the forum for discussion, improve it, modify the rules, and then enforce them from now on.

What did you do?
You said you "suspect" some results were made with the same golden hardware and at the same time you decided to block the results.
Then you released new guidelines.

The golden sample example is just to show you what would happen if we would allow hardware sharing. From your reaction I can see that you don't approve such situation, which is completely normal.

Enforce them from now on if you please. Not on past scores.

http://www.hwbot.org/hwbot.post.do?postId=689
10th of august 2007 - What past scores?

I feel you have no way to prove whether those rules are applied or not.
You can only decide by yourself alone which scores you approve or not based on the moon phase.
Is this the kind of hwbot that you want?

YES, we can only judge based on what we see and what information we get from people. This is HWBot and we have rules to comfort everyone, to keep things fair. If you don't agree with the rules, you can always suggest something (just PM a crew member), but you cannot just upload scores against te rules.

The above guidelines have nothing to do with the golden CPU example you gave.
I have nothing against team working and sharing or combining hardware.
Today one team has the golden CPU, tomorrow another team gets it.
Though in some cases it's not the golden CPU that makes the difference but the GOLDEN TEAM.
I like team working and I like those golden teams that make regular CPUs look like golden.
Don't you?

Teams are, to me, all about sharing: sharing knowledge. When it comes to the points system, we have avoid teams to share the hardware to get more points. The golden cpu example is a scenario which is very real when not using rules about hardware sharing. It's an example to show you what the problem is and why we those rules.

knopflerbruce

01-08-2008, 20:03

Massman

01-08-2008, 20:15

mariosalice

01-08-2008, 20:39

- For videocard benchmarks (3DMark01/03/05/06, Aquamark): upload the results to the account of the owner of the videocard.
- For processor benchmarks (SuperPi1M/32M, PCMark05, wPrime32M/1024M, PiFast): upload the results to the account of the owner of the processor.
- Uploading lower scores on other accounts than the one of owner of the hardware is not allowed.
.....
The complete set of rules will have it own page in the future, we're currently in the proces of gathering all programs which can be used as verification (cpuz ...) and we provide sample screenshot + how-to's.
Could you please give us a link with all the rules that apply?
I suppose this "ownership" rule is included.
We all have to respect your rules, as long as we can find them.

I have seen different opinions about ownership and I am a bit confused.
Can I buy a used CPU and upload my higher scores in case someone else did it before me?
Do I really have to be the owner of the CPU - GPU, or is it OK to use any hardware I want as long as no one else got any points from this?

I am also against bad moderation.
For example you suspect a score was made with the same hardware someone else used to get hwboints.
How can I prove that my hardware is not the same?
Or you take it down anyway, just because this is the way you feel?

darthtony

01-08-2008, 20:57

You have an insane E2180, which exceeds all other cpu's except mine. I have a golden chip which runs about 150MHz faster than yours. There's no problem, you're second and beaten by a better cpu.
BUT, today I have invited all my OCTB-friends and I will let them, one by one, bench the cpu on their system with their tweaks, in total the 19 members of my team.
Remember: it's their skill which is being tested.
So the day after the benching, all upload their score of the E2180 and turns out ... you're not 2nd anymore, you moved to place 21th, having no points at all (loss will be: 7 benches x 10 points = 70 points). Will you still be satisfied by the fact that "all used their own system, just their own skill"?

You have a good point. but HOW can you prove that some people have used the same cpu's for benching?If you don't allow teams to bench together and share the hardware then why do you have the teams?

Massman

01-08-2008, 21:02

Could you please give us a link with all the rules that apply?
I suppose this "ownership" rule is included.
If not, then you play unfair.
We all have to respect your rules, as long as we can find them.

That's one of HWBot's flaws which are worked on. I expect a full set of rules to be posted on the crew forums any day now. As long as those rules are not online, the ownership rules stated in you post are the ones you should follow.

Explain the unfair part, please? :). These rules have been online since August '07 and have been applied many, many, many times before. In this case, we tried to contact HOT before blocking, but it got out of hand.

I have seen different opinions about ownership and I am a bit confused.
Can I buy a used CPU and upload my higher scores in case someone else did it before me?
Do I really have to be the owner of the CPU - GPU, or is it OK to use any hardware I want as long as no one else got any points from this?

The different opinions in this thread are supposed to help us in redesigning the rules regarding hardware sharing and are not applied at this moment.
Of course you can buy a used CPU and upload the scores even if someone else did it before you (Note: we know that you can state that you bought the cpu while you're just lending it, but remember that this is still all about having fun. We will try to fit this 'problem' into the new rules)
For 2D benchmarks, you have to be the owner of the cpu. For 3D benchmarks, you have to be the owner of the gpu. All other hardware is open for sharing (Note: may change when we present the new rules, not sure about that. Untill the new guidelines regarding hardware sharing are released, these are the correct ones).

I am also against bad moderation.
For example you suspect a score was made with the same hardware someone else used to get hwboints.
How can I prove that my hardware is not the same?
Or you take it down anyway, just because this is the way you feel?

Normally, we always contact the member when we find a strange score, shared hardware, similar results ... Mostly, just one mail is enough to clear things up as most members just forgot something. When we have no idea of what is going on (not even when discussed in the crew section), we decide to block the score, hoping for a clear answer from the member. In case of too little 'proof' (this is discussed with all result moderators, of course), we keep the score blocked. We can always make mistakes (yes, we can :p ) and if that's the case, we can always unblock the result.

I have read the greek forums, recieved a few PM's and checked a few other things on HWBot and it seems to me that I have enough 'proof' of some kind of hardware sharing. THOUGH, and please read this good, I have also read what HOT is all about when it comes to team benching and I can only congratulate HOT. Although the rules are not followed, the idea and spirit of that session (I've seen the pictures as well) is one we all should follow :D.

!! Please know that this is a problem because of problems with the rules, not because of problems with HOT as a team !!

Massman

01-08-2008, 21:05

You have a good point. but HOW can you prove that some people have used the same cpu's for benching?If you don't allow teams to bench together and share the hardware then why do you have the teams?

First of all, we rely on the honesty of the people who use HWBot, of course. But that is not enough, so ... good question and we're trying to find an answer to that question.

mariosalice

01-08-2008, 22:34

That's one of HWBot's flaws which are worked on. I expect a full set of rules to be posted on the crew forums any day now. As long as those rules are not online, the ownership rules stated in you post are the ones you should follow.

Explain the unfair part, please? :). These rules have been online since August '07 and have been applied many, many, many times before. In this case, we tried to contact HOT before blocking, but it got out of hand.

The different opinions in this thread are supposed to help us in redesigning the rules regarding hardware sharing and are not applied at this moment.
Of course you can buy a used CPU and upload the scores even if someone else did it before you (Note: we know that you can state that you bought the cpu while you're just lending it, but remember that this is still all about having fun. We will try to fit this 'problem' into the new rules)
For 2D benchmarks, you have to be the owner of the cpu. For 3D benchmarks, you have to be the owner of the gpu. All other hardware is open for sharing (Note: may change when we present the new rules, not sure about that. Untill the new guidelines regarding hardware sharing are released, these are the correct ones).

Normally, we always contact the member when we find a strange score, shared hardware, similar results ... Mostly, just one mail is enough to clear things up as most members just forgot something. When we have no idea of what is going on (not even when discussed in the crew section), we decide to block the score, hoping for a clear answer from the member. In case of too little 'proof' (this is discussed with all result moderators, of course), we keep the score blocked. We can always make mistakes (yes, we can :p ) and if that's the case, we can always unblock the result.

I have read the greek forums, recieved a few PM's and checked a few other things on HWBot and it seems to me that I have enough 'proof' of some kind of hardware sharing. THOUGH, and please read this good, I have also read what HOT is all about when it comes to team benching and I can only congratulate HOT. Although the rules are not followed, the idea and spirit of that session (I've seen the pictures as well) is one we all should follow :D.

!! Please know that this is a problem because of problems with the rules, not because of problems with HOT as a team !!
I think it is unfair to moderate benches based on non existing rules.
Make your rules, put them on the first page and then start enforcing them.
No need to be so strict at the moment.
Remember that this is still all about having fun.

I believe that no one understands the August guidelines.
Not even your moderators.
Just ask them to write their opinion about how they understand ownership.
"For 3D benchmarks, you have to be the owner of the gpu."
How about GPUs?
One, two, three, four?
I would like to hear your opinion on the following situation.
Let's say I have three GPUs and bench on my system.
Then a team mate brings his own two GPUs to bench on my system using my third GPU.
Is this OK?
Does it make any difference if he owns two or three GPUs?
Then you take down his score.
The next day my friend borrows another video card and this time I bench for him again.
This time you get photos from all six video cards.
Is this enough?
How can you tell which video cards did we use and who was benching?
You said you rely on our word. No you don't and our word is not enough.
When I report a score as suspicious I need to have proofs, not someone's word.
There is no "word" when dealing with rules.
So, unless you find another way (other than our word) to enforce the ownership rule, this rule is greatly unfair and an excuse to delete any scores you don't like.

I favor team benchmarking with combined hardware, but I hate giving away a second or third score to other members of a team.
So please concentrate your efforts on this.

I am glad that you read our forums yourself.
We started the HOT brainstorming effort a month ago.
Now I see that you want to stop our programs in many ways.
Well, make your rules clear and then we have many other ways to continue our own efforts.
It is great to bench with other H.O.T. members.

PS
How many other hidden rules do you have?
Are you also going to make a rule about who is allowed to pure the LN? (you mentioned this)
And do not forget those who help bringing coffee and snacks for the bencher. Since we bench 12 hours someone has to do this job.

knopflerbruce

01-09-2008, 00:29

Okay, fair solution :)

Another situation for you Knopflerbruce:

Let's say, OCTB is recruiting new members and you all know that HWBot is very keen on new members in the benchmark community. We like to see the experienced benchers learn the new members how benching exactly works. By introducing hardware points next to the global points, we tried to give the unexperienced users a chance to collect a few points for the team (as none of the new benchers will have 100+ points directly).
MassTWO, my newest OCTB'er, only has a E2180 to play with, but luckily he has a good one AND he manages to break into the top5 of every bench with his cpu. When he sees his account, he sees he has gained 15 points, making him 3000th, but of course he's only interested in the team's ranking.
Because I have bigger scores, he does not add points to the team's ranking and decides to quit as it doesn't even matter if he's on the team or not.

With the new GPU's, it's easy to get about 10 points on each bench just on aircooling. But if the points are not added to the team's total, why would anyone like to keep benching (especially when he's just trying it out)?

I imagined this would be a problem, but you did something similar before:

I can't get more points for my team unless I get an Intel rig, as my team only benefits from 300 of my 430-440 points already. Time to retire from HWBot?? I mean... I can't get more team points nor "personal points", only more cups and a higher hardware master rank. The member you talk about will be able to fight for more personal points, which I can't, but apart from that it's the same situation. Which means that I should have less motivation to continue benching here than a fresh dude, since my points are useless, except for a tiny ranking list.

I know it's not a 100% bullet-proof solution, but this may be about finding the best solution, not the perfect one. And I find it a bit hard to believe that most people bench ONLY for their teams and not for themselves;)

AN7 OverClocker

01-09-2008, 00:43

duh, of course we do, we just don't like result sharing, check Massman's previous posts.

Arghh,
We didn't share any results god damn.

I see that opinion in 3-4 posts now...we never said that we share results..and its not the point of this thread

Maxi

01-09-2008, 06:15

My solution to the shared HW/team score problem:

Only the best score for each CPU (or GPU)/benchmark combo will count as team points. Which means that if 20 people from OCTB post an e2180 score, only #1 will help the team.

That is exactly what happens by default when joint/team bench session results are posted to a team account.

hipro5

01-09-2008, 07:52

Hi there.....It took a while for my answer I think..... :D

Well, I have a LOT to write and I don't have the time right now (I'm on a friend's computer).....

When I'll be in my place (in an hour or two), I'll write down what I have to and I'll upload and some photos that I was sent).... :)

Massman

01-09-2008, 08:35

Arghh,
We didn't share any results god damn.

I see that opinion in 3-4 posts now...we never said that we share results..and its not the point of this thread

So what's the point of this thread according to you?

I know that in both sessions (Hipro was helping with the ln² => JOINT session) both E. and G. used Hipro's videocards, which makes it illegal to post the result to their account.

I imagined this would be a problem, but you did something similar before:

I can't get more points for my team unless I get an Intel rig, as my team only benefits from 300 of my 430-440 points already. Time to retire from HWBot?? I mean... I can't get more team points nor "personal points", only more cups and a higher hardware master rank. The member you talk about will be able to fight for more personal points, which I can't, but apart from that it's the same situation. Which means that I should have less motivation to continue benching here than a fresh dude, since my points are useless, except for a tiny ranking list.

I know it's not a 100% bullet-proof solution, but this may be about finding the best solution, not the perfect one. And I find it a bit hard to believe that most people bench ONLY for their teams and not for themselves;)

I agree, this might be the best solution in the end :). Finding a perfect solution is sloe to impossible, I reckon :).

Hi there.....It took a while for my answer I think..... :D

Well, I have a LOT to write and I don't have the time right now (I'm on a friend's computer).....

When I'll be in my place (in an hour or two), I'll write down what I have to and I'll upload and some photos that I was sent).... :)

Awaiting your post :)

elefsinaras

01-09-2008, 09:28

@Massman
I know that in both sessions (Hipro was helping with the ln² => JOINT session) both E. and G. used Hipro's videocards,

you know only for your shelf you cant know thinks for
me or G ok ?
unless if you are god please recall and edit your post

YOU KNOW ? OR YOU CAN IMAGINE ?
BECAUSE IF YOU KNOW YOU DONT KNOW NOTHING
we had bench hard for theese results we used many ln2
and many many hours to do theese scors you like it
or not this is the truth NOW YOU CAN IMAGINE ANYTHING
YOU WANT thats all by me

AN7 OverClocker

01-09-2008, 09:54

So what's the point of this thread according to you?

I know that in both sessions (Hipro was helping with the ln² => JOINT session) both E. and G. used Hipro's videocards, which makes it illegal to post the result to their account.

Hm...
Lets have an example because i think sth is wrong here.

"Sharing Results" Is to Bench...lets say me...and Hipro is controlling the ln² or IF i use hipro's videocards for 3dmark??.

At my knowledge "Sharing Result" is to bench Hipro...when i was at my bed..an send me the lower Score of 3dmark.

o polonos

01-09-2008, 10:01

Hm...
Lets have an example because i think sth is wrong here.

"Sharing Results" Is to Bench...lets say me...and Hipro is controlling the ln² or IF i use hipro's videocards for 3dmark??.

At my knowledge "Sharing Result" is to bench Hipro...when i was at my bed..an send me the lower Score of 3dmark.
You have right here.
But we talking about "sharing hardware" not "sharing result"
jmke have wrong here :)

Massman

01-09-2008, 10:02

@Massman

you know only for your shelf you cant know thinks for
me or G ok ?
unless if you are god please recall and edit your post

YOU KNOW ? OR YOU CAN IMAGINE ?
BECAUSE IF YOU KNOW YOU DONT KNOW NOTHING
we had bench hard for theese results we used many ln2
and many many hours to do theese scors you like it
or not this is the truth NOW YOU CAN IMAGINE ANYTHING
YOU WANT thats all by me

This is what you (wanted to) bring to the session:

2 x 8800GTX
1 x E6850
1 x G-Pot rev1.02
1 x DDR Maximizer
4 x 1GB ram
1 x Blitz formula

A certain number of delta fans

//EDIT: Yes, I read the forums when I tried to figure things out ;).

o polonos

01-09-2008, 10:04

This is what you (wanted to) bring to the session:

2 x 8800GTX
1 x E6850
1 x G-Pot rev1.02
1 x DDR Maximizer
4 x 1GB ram
1 x Blitz formula

A certain number of delta fans

And now Peter please say how you reading this post ;)
I can't be "the bad guy" over and over again...

Monstru

01-09-2008, 10:05

Guys....fighting will not solve anything, only make things worse :(

I am absolutely sure that nobody has anything against HOT, that alone is a silly idea. HOT is one of the "golden teams" and hipro one of the golden overlcokers, and I don't thin that anyone ever doubt that. I think that the guys from HWB are only trying to enforce the rules, and that is the same for every team. If the rules are flawed (and some of them are) let's discuss that without anger and bad feelings, and let all of us who have a suggestion try to make them better. Propose solutions, find the ideal way, but do not fight and accuse people just because some ego fight. Let's be real, all this fuss about sharing hardware and rules and points started because of the huge ego fight that is taking place between the top teams. I saw how you guys talk to each other, I know how it is to want to have better results that a competitor, everybody can see that you guys are just battling for ego.... Hipro is one of the greatest overclcokers in the world....HOT is one of the greatest teams, with very very talented members.....But having the most points on HWB and being the first team will not make you better, or better known, it will just make you feel better about yourselves. K|ngp|n is a great overclocker, just like hipro....He is on the 23rd place on HWB or something like that, posting just 6-7 records of his. Does this mean that the guys in front of him are better clockers??? XtremeSystems is the 4th or 5th team in the top. does that mean that XS Forums is not the place that brings everybody together from evey country or forum, does that mean that XS members are not great clcokers anymore???? You guys have made a goal from being number one, point wise.... Relax guys, you are great clockers, like few in the world....Enjoy that, enjoy benching, keep breaking WR's, keep pushing the limits, and let the points be just another recognition of your value, not the first. It makes me sad to see world champions fight like that just because some ego fight with other teams about who's first, when all you guys are such great clockers :(

One thing about golden chips, because I can see that the opinions are very different....Hey guys....if GOLDEN teams make regular chips seem like golden and having a truly special chip really doesn't matter...how come the guys from Thug Team still have the record for the highest clock ever???? Why didn't any other great, golden teams, break their record??? Think about that ;)

elefsinaras

01-09-2008, 10:10

o polonos

01-09-2008, 10:12

Massman

01-09-2008, 10:13

o polonos

01-09-2008, 10:18

@Massman

to the first meeting.........
and because you dont know my language and somebody
has make the translation to you..........(meaby polonos)
i said that theese i can SHARE
I DONT TELL THAT THEESE......I HAVE ONLY
YOU MUST FIND BETTER TRANSLATOR M8
you expose your shelf to mistakes this is my opinion
sorry for double post
As i have say in thelab.gr i was not involved (any moderator can say if it's true)
This issue not having to do with HOT but with those scores
NOBODY hunting HOT
You are a big guy elefsinaras and if you don't want understand that i can't do anything about it

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s261/Massman-/Naamloos--.png
This picture was sent yesterday from massman to giorgos th ;)
SS shown who have start all this history ....

elefsinaras

01-09-2008, 10:20

And why you think i was translator ? Com'on m8

because my opinion is that YOU are the starter of all bad thinks
my opinion.....not only for this........and for all the other things
that happend my opinion again............

edit.......
i am not only big guy in age i am big guy and in weight............

o polonos

01-09-2008, 10:22

because my opinion is that YOU are the starter of all bad thinks
my opinion.....not only for this........and for all the other things
that happend my opinion again............

But if you don't know things how you can have opinion ? you can have an opinion, but never one with good reasons
everyone has an opinion about everything, but only a few are interesting to listen to
and those few are those who know what's going on
My answer is in previus post ;)

elefsinaras

01-09-2008, 10:25

here in this forum you dont need to know..........
it IS ok........JUST TO HAVE IMAGINATION AM I RIGHT ?

o polonos

01-09-2008, 10:28

And if you wrong then what ?
You gonna ask sorry ?
Im not a guilty guy here man ;)
These posts don't helping this thread .... Or even you team ...
I dont have say or do NOTHING .....

elefsinaras

01-09-2008, 10:43

These posts don't helping this thread .... Or even you team ...
I dont have say or do NOTHING .....

i know that YOU are the man that help my team
and YOU have done enough and i want to thank you
:ws:

Maxi

01-09-2008, 11:45

Thanks for that Monstru, I hope everyone takes the time to read your post.

SF3D

01-09-2008, 12:39

Monstru- Best post in this thread. Thank you!

Now everyone, please calm down!

This thread have gone too far. I just send e-mail to three members who have benched together with same hardware and then published scores to all three accounts. This was the point in the e-mail. Nothing more, nothing less.

These personal attacks and pointless dispute in this thread are not making anything better.

Situation is still the same. Those scores were done with shared hardware and it would have been ok, if only one of you would post best results. If you would have done it that way, this thread wouldn't exist.

Spyrus

01-09-2008, 14:46

Situation is still the same. Those scores were done with shared hardware and it would have been ok, if only one of you would post best results. If you would have done it that way, this thread wouldn't exist.

1)It is not very easy to prove a shared result as there are many people with identical setup and mostly the top of the hardware.
2)If those scores weren't so great no one would care and no post would exist anyway.

AN7 OverClocker

01-09-2008, 14:57

Monstru- Best post in this thread. Thank you!
Situation is still the same. Those scores were done with shared hardware and it would have been ok, if only one of you would post best results. If you would have done it that way, this thread wouldn't exist.
How can you be so sure about that?

George_o/c

01-09-2008, 15:05

Those scores were done with shared hardware and it would have been ok, if only one of you would post best results. If you would have done it that way, this thread wouldn't exist.

Why's that again ? :confused:

SF3D

01-09-2008, 15:14

Have someone proved somehow, that those scores are not done with same hardware and in the same time. I haven't seen real proof. I will believe those guys if they show me something real.

Yes, scores are great and that is one part of the problem. They will give a lot of points to one team. This is the reason why we are trying to do new rules about shared hardware

George_o/c: Because we don't have complete rules yet. We are using the previous rules, which says that the owner of the hardware can / should post results. Now they didn't do that way. (If someone of those three members really own those parts)

Why does this matter raise feelings so much here. And especially those members are angry, who are not involved in this.

psilos

01-09-2008, 15:23

Can i say one thing??
I want to bring an example..I don't have something with guys from team MXS but the only reason for the under example is that i have the same graphic card.

All here are talking for H.O.T about sharing results or hardware and there is a little bit confusion...

Let's all see this category of Radeon 1950PRo 256mb http://www.hwbot.org/ResultBrowseByVideoCard.do?gpuModelId=1054 the only thing that my eye goes on is that the guys from MXS has taken all the first position maybe with the same card...Aren't they share hardware???

Why is the problem with H.O.T finally?
Did we make something like that for other team when we saw it to coming up??
I think no...

So, why is the problem with HOT...?

And at all everyone from us has his own hardware and noone is in our homes to check it. I must said that i bought a new videocard everywhere for uploading results then on hwbot.? Or i must post to all forums that i bought for not having these problems..?Everyone can do whatever he wants with his money. This is my opinion.

P.S.: I want to say again that i don't have something with you guys from MXS the example was just because i have the same card..

darthtony

01-09-2008, 16:14

are you sayng that they shared the hardware or that they benched together and they posted the score on all 3 accounts?
i still can't understand :D

Massman

01-09-2008, 16:32

We are saying that the had a a joint bench session and the person who uploaded the scores were not the owners of the videocards, which is in violation with the rules posted in August '07

AN7 OverClocker

01-09-2008, 16:41

and the person who uploaded the scores were not the owners of the videocards
and not the "bencher"?

The person who uploaded the results wasn't the "bencher"?

Is that you are saying?

Massman

01-09-2008, 16:47

We're talking about ownership and violation of the latest updated rules: http://www.hwbot.org/hwbot.post.do?postId=689.

SF3D

01-09-2008, 16:49

01:

Giorgos th.: 98683 (QX9650 5.5GHz, 2900XT 850/990) http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=679384
elefsinaras: 97719 (QX9650 5,46GHz, 2900XT 850/990) http://www.hwbot.org/compare.do?resultId=677874

05:

Giorgos th.: 35342 (QX9650 5.5GHz, 2900XT 850/990) http://www.hwbot.org/compare.do?resultId=679525
elefsinaras: 35226 (QX9650 5,46GHz, 2900XT 850/990) http://www.hwbot.org/compare.do?resultId=677879
tsan: 34754 (QX9650 5.4GHz 2900XT 850/990) http://www.hwbot.org/compare.do?resultId=678157

06:

tsan : 25646 (QX9650 5.5GHz 2900XT 850/990) http://www.hwbot.org/compare.do?resultId=685631
elefsinaras: 25590 (QX9650 5.46GHz 850/990) http://www.hwbot.org/compare.do?resultId=677880
giorgos: 25407 (QX9650 5,46GHz 850/990) http://www.hwbot.org/compare.do?resultId=679526

AM3:

giorgos: 324484 (QX9650 5.5GHz 2900XT 850/990) http://www.hwbot.org/compare.do?resultId=679390
tsan: 311442 (QX9650 5.44GHz 2900XT 850/990) http://www.hwbot.org/compare.do?resultId=678154
elefsinaras: 309700 (QX9650 5.46GHz 2900XT 850/990) http://www.hwbot.org/compare.do?resultId=677885

How they have mixed clock speeds in there. Tsan could clock his QX9650 to 5.5GHZ only in 3DM06??? Giorgos got 5.5GHz in every other bench but not in 06, he got the exact same than tsan in other benches (5.46GHz)

Come on guys!

I have got personal messages where you say that I have imagined all this. Well, I don't have very good imagination then, I quess :)

AN7 OverClocker

01-09-2008, 16:58

@massman

You continue speaking hypothetically.

@SF3D
When giorgos.th benched i was there.
Elefsinaras + tsan didn't "play" that day and at the next appointment that giorgos.th benched they weren't even there.
If they used same cpu+videocards..i dont know.
For the videocards its against the rules but why do you care about the cpu?

edit1.
tsan used Maximus Extreme X38 DDR3 and elefsinaras Blitz Formula DDR2.

Exact same hardware????????
You expect and the same cpu can do the same at different mobos?

edit2.
and giorgos.th Blitz Extreme DDR3

psilos

01-09-2008, 17:16

the clocks of the 2900XT that were 850/990 for me just don't say nothing..
I don't know if they are the same but this clock is very easy even with the worst 2900.

Massman

01-09-2008, 17:17

When are you guys willing to tell what happened? I have heard a gazillion stories and none of them give me reasons why not to block those results.

Besides the fact that it's kind of obvious that people used Hipro's hardware (see the list he made on page2 - where are E. and G. ??), we have several other inconsistencies in any story we hear. I can understand that it might not be amusing that we consider this illegal, but this thread has made this a bigger issue than it really is.

SF3D

01-09-2008, 17:39

@SF3D
When giorgos.th benched i was there.
Elefsinaras + tsan didn't "play" that day and at the next appointment that giorgos.th benched they weren't even there.
If they used same cpu+videocards..i dont know.

Thank you for this information AN7 OverClocker!

Like massman said, why don't you tell the whole story?

This case could be closed after that quickly. It doesn't help if you just continue to fight.

Monstru

01-09-2008, 17:39

Guys.....you broke an obvious rule, clearly written here on HWB. That is why the HWB mods are blocking the results.

On the other hand, as I stated a few days ago, that rule has flaws and i don't entirely agree with it. Ok, if many people think that rule is flawed, let's think of a way in which it could be improved. I think this is the mature solution, not fighting :)

We don't like that ugly rule :D I tried to think of something, and maybe that also has flaws. Other people also thought of some solutions. Any other ideas??? C'mon.....let's make HWB better for all, instead of fighting :)

darthtony

01-09-2008, 19:55

We are saying that the had a a joint bench session and the person who uploaded the scores were not the owners of the videocards, which is in violation with the rules posted in August '07
if the owner of the videocard has no problem the results being uploaded to the bencher's account then why should there be a rule against it?I think you should alter that rule.can't I use some of my teamate's hw, overclock it and post the results on my account? or I have to post the results to the owner of the hw? waht's the difference exactly?and you can't know if someone have bought the hw from another teammate!Again I think that you should reconsider the rule ;-)
But let's Wait for Hipro's response :-)
Peace

hipro5

01-09-2008, 21:30

WTF happent to my thread?..... :D TOO MANY posts.... :D

First off, this is going to be a LONG post......So PLEASE read it ALL carrefully.... :)

Let's start with this:

I just send e-mail to three members who have benched together with same hardware and then published scores to all three accounts. This was the point in the e-mail. Nothing more, nothing less.
Those scores were done with shared hardware and it would have been ok, if only one of you would post best results. If you would have done it that way, this thread wouldn't exist.

To clear some thing up.....
Those 2/3 guys you're talking about have NEVER BENCHED TOGETHER - EVER -

PLEASE KEEP this in mind and let's move on..... :)

Now.....

tsan

He OWNS the hardware he have benched till now and he owns MORE that this too......

He's a "quite guy" and he ALWAYS BENCHIES ALONE TO HIS PLACE....

He doesn't write well English so he told me to write some things in Enlish for him - He was saying them to me in Greek and I will write them down in English -

Here's HIS benching place and HIS HARDWARE:

EACH photo has his description...

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/2%20abit%20ip35pro+aw9d+evga%20680sli.jpg

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/4300+2%206600+%20q6700+e6700+x6800+qx9650.jpg

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/and%20my%202%20xfx%208800%20gtx.jpg

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/asus%20blitz+cellshock%201150%20red.jpg

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/asus%20maximus.jpg

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/asus%20p5e64%20ws%20ddr3.jpg

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/blitz+2%202900xt+680%20dq6.jpg

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/blitz+%20ati%202900xt+chellshock%20red.jpg

hipro5

01-09-2008, 21:31

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/cell%20shock%20+gskill.jpg

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/maximus+ati2900xt.jpg

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/my%20cascade.jpg

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/my%20ln2%20contenere.jpg

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/Temp/TSAN/my%20qx%209650.jpg

Sorry for the too many photos but that he was told me to do.....upload them.... :(

Now......He says that he HAS RECIEPTS FOR EVERYONE OF THEM and he asks to WHOME should he send them to testify that it is HIS HARDARE
He also told me that once it is testified, he DEMANDS from SF3D to APOLOGIES IN PUBLIC and QUIT from Moderator (cuz he ain't worth it judging people he doesn't know and say things about them that are NOT REAL)..... (His words not mine - Sorry but he told me to write that down - ).... :(

Elefsinaras

He benchies ALWAYS TO HIS PLACE with his hardware and hardware that I don't give a dumn from where he finds/buy them.....
He has benched ONLY ONCE at my place and that was done ALONE (I had work to do and I didn't pay attention at what he was doing)......
NOT for the benchies we are talking about here....

gioprgos th.

He benched TWICE at my place....
He benched with:

My "spare" VGAs ATI 2900XT ON AIR with their default heatsinks that I DON'T USE AND I HAVE NEVER UPLOADED ANY RESAULT FROM THEM.....

My "spare" QX9650 RETAIL that I DON'T USE AND I HAVE NEVER UPLOADED ANY RESAULT FROM IT (by the way I have another two of them for sale - one does 5430MHz 3D and the other one does 5380MHz - PM in case that someone is interested - :D

My "spare" ASUS Blitz Extreme DDR3 that I DON'T USE AND I HAVE NEVER UPLOADED ANY RESAULT FROM IT (I have it for "backup reasons" in case something happen to my first one).....

And YES I MYSELF have poured LN2 for him on his benchings.....BUT that I made it a gift for him....
DO we in hwbot take any points for pouring LN2 into someones container?.....IF yes, then cut them from me.... :)

NOW if you have anything to ask please do....

CONTINUING......

According to THE BELOW QUOTE:

- only the owner of the processor may submit scores in processor related benches

I DEMAND RIGHT NOW TO TAKE DOWN the following scores that were done with "MY" QX9650 ES CPU.....

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667143

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667142

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=666910

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667130

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667128

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667837

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=668073

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667843

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=668877

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=668875

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667846

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667853

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667927

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667862

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667858

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667913

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667912

The ABOVE resaults/scores were done with "MY" CPU.....PLUS POLONOS KNEW IT that those benchies were done with ONLY ONE CPU and he DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING TO YOU (hwbot crew)......WHY? .....
OR you knew it too and you have "covered" it somehow?... :p:D

IF the hwbot CREW, ISN'T FOLLOWING IT'S OWN SITE'S "RULES", then I ask you, how some people out there will follow them?....Simple question by a simple user.... :)

Last sentenses by me:

1. Obi you're an arss.... :D

2. Polonos you just DON'T deserve the place you have into hwbot crew as for me..... :o

3. We had a "benching session" at my place....There were about 20 persons or more BUT ONLY giorgos th. was benching that day with the hardware I wrote above.... ALL THE OTHER persons were talking, laughing and things like that as a company you know..... :)

Now once again, please ask whatever you want.....Thanks....:)

LL_NEO

01-09-2008, 21:38

Hipro5 crits topic with 56845546878 frost damage

Topic dies

hipro5

01-09-2008, 21:43

exactly, but since scores with identical hw were posted on same date with only small difference in result, to different accounts, this whole mess was started.

1. It WASN'T the "same day" as you claim.....

2. The ONLY "same hardware" - IF you want to say it like that - were DIFFERENT ATIs 2900XT which were FLASHED with the SAME BIOS....
ALL OTHER ARE DIFFERENT if you take a look at the benchies....

Now...Should I flash my 2 x 3870s with a bios that a guy have uploaded and it is the EXACT SAME FOR TOO MANY users OR should I wait for hwbot permission to do so..... :D

George_o/c

01-09-2008, 22:09

Wow ! ... Fatallity ... :p
I am curious about what will happen ...

PS : George, it's high time you posted, so that everything is straightened out ... ;) Nice job dude, keep your results coming ;)

richba5tard

01-09-2008, 22:18

He also told me that once it is testified, he DEMANDS from SF3D to APOLOGIES IN PUBLIC and QUIT from Moderator (cuz he ain't worth it judging people he doesn't know and say things about them that are NOT REAL)..... (His words not mine - Sorry but he told me to write that down - ).... :([/B]

What an utter disrespect for someone dedicating his spare time to the oc community. :(

SF3D

01-09-2008, 22:20

Thank you Hipro to clear things up. I know that you were busy, but this info should have come earlier. This thread have gone too far.

I can and will apologise Tsan, if this all you told is true. I can see the Maximus extreme and 2x2900XT, that he have used in his benches. You can tell my apologies to him Hipro.

E: Frederik - That is just normal reaction from tsan. I don't mind. Why should I?

dinos22

01-09-2008, 22:26

Maxi's quote does not reflect the current hwbot guidelines. 1Day is working hard in finalizing the hwbot guidelines, but in the mean time this is the rule to follow:

- only the owner of the processor may submit scores in processor related benches
- only the owner of the videocard may submit scores in videocard related benches

We know these rules are not 100% waterproof, and not even fair if it's the case of sponsored hardware. We are currently discussing changes to this rule in the crew. In the mean time, please follow the old rules.
Richard

this is unacceptable. If one of your moderators told us in public that a non-owner of hardware benching alone is able to submit results is now somehow not acceptable people have been mislead and you CANNOT penalise them now for it.

i don't know what the story with HOT entries is and it is not my business to discuss what's right or wrong but I find your statement there unfair and until you guys sort out full guidelines it should not be the case

Maxi

01-09-2008, 22:37

Hey hipro,

Can you please check post #39 and clarify things?

Thanks :)

hipro5

01-09-2008, 22:53

Hey hipro,

Can you please check post #39 and clarify things?

Thanks :)

Sorry for my late reply...

Hipro I have a question, is what Bill said here true?

If so then these results are only valid when posted to a 'Team Account', that is an account you setup for all H.O.T. community bench sessions. It's pretty simple, when you bench alone the results are yours. When you bench with someone else the results go into the Team account. These rules are designed to make things fun for everyone and allow for the frequent community bench sessions without causing unfair advantage to all HWBot teams. Remember it's up to the users and teams to keep the competiton fair and fun ;) :D

If you have any questions please let me/any hwbot staff know.

Thanks,

maxi

What this has to do with me and pouring LN2 to some guy?.....WE (me and the guy) ARE NOT A "TEAM"......H.O.T. IS a "TEAM".....I don't get it!.....
WHERE is this "hiden rule" of pouring LN2 to a guy?.....I don't see it written ANYWHERE HERE: http://www.hwbot.org/hwbot.post.do?postId=689 ....Do you... ?... :)

Thank you Hipro to clear things up. I know that you were busy, but this info should have come earlier. This thread have gone too far.

I can and will apologise Tsan, if this all you told is true. I can see the Maximus extreme and 2x2900XT, that he have used in his benches. You can tell my apologies to him Hipro.

E: Frederik - That is just normal reaction from tsan. I don't mind. Why should I?

Sorry for that SF3D but he forsed me to write it down...... :(

TASOS

01-09-2008, 23:00

A few comments from me ....

1)@hipro5
That was not a post-reply ... that was Desert Storm

2)@SF3D
I'm pleased to see a person that has the strength to admit when he's wrong & doesnt "afraid" to say sorry.
That's what defines a man from kids playin arround.
You have my credit for that.

3)@dinos22
I totally agree with you.

4)@richba5tard
I really expect more from you ... and not just a comment about tsan & SFD3 in this topic.

I know there must be some hard effort in the background of hwbot ... about making new rules and taking some hard decisions.

Dont loose focus & keep in mind ... that hwbot is a concept,an idea ... that is meaningless without the wide acceptance from us....the people of hwbot.
If you loose the pulse of people seeing things... you may end up loosing too many.

Ask the Team Leaders ... about their ideas and opinions ... before you end up with your new set of rules.
Maybe you and your crew are missing a different kind of aspect.

You still have my full support & trust ... and if there is anything i can do to help ... i'm here.

richba5tard

01-09-2008, 23:06

I DEMAND RIGHT NOW TO TAKE DOWN the following scores that were done with "MY" QX9650 ES CPU.....

[B]http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667143

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667142

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=666910

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667130

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667128

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667837

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=668073

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667843

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=668877

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=668875

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667846

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667853

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667927

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667862

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667858

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667913

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=667912

The ABOVE resaults/scores were done with "MY" CPU.....

Ok, the above results of processor related benches which where made by your CPU, and benched by other embers, have been blocked. The videocard related ones are not blocked, as using your cpu is not strictly against the hwbot guidelines.

If future hwbot guidelines approve the now blocked benches, they will be unblocked. Thank you.

@TASOS: I trust the moderation to the hwbot crew, and don't moderate myself unless really necessary. Otherwise I would not get any management or coding done. : )

Massman

01-09-2008, 23:22

First of all, I can't say I don't feel feel horribly disrespected in this case. George, why on earth did you make such a big deal out of this??? I remember sending you PM's on XS to find out what was going on the 23th December a day before I opened a thread about this on the crew forums. A clear explanation then and this would not have been a problem at all. After those PM's I contacted Bill as well to listen to your story, once again to settle this in all peace and he suggested a private forum in which we could exchange thoughts without having to cause big problems anywhere. Instead of that, you chose to open a thread here which has set up a lot of users more than it has set up us. Please, next time we ask for some kind of story, think about keeping the people who are not related to the problem out of this. To continue, I cannot leave your opinion about Thomas and Tsan's opinion about SF3D unanswered. These people do incredible jobs here, more than you can imagine. Both of them are in my eyes most respectable people, because they sacrifice big parts of their free time to this site, to make it better and to create a happy environment for people to play in. As said before, we are still human and still rely on our cognition to make discissions. 99% of the descissions we make are heavily discussed in our crew forums.

Second, most important to me, before you guys get back to benching, settle down and talk to your fellow greek clockers! It seems to me that this thread mainly has derailed because of this thing which is going on between both HOT and OOFS, while OOFS had nothing to do with this. You're all grown-up and mature enough to understand each other perfectly and I really couldn't hope more than both teams burrying the weapons and just respect each other. You cannot be friends with everyone on this planet, but you can always be friendly to everyone, even if you really dislike that person. Hell, the benching community is pretty small (comparing to the gaming community), why would we divide them up in segments anyway?

Third, (time to get back to business) would you please give your opinion about hardware sharing in general? I have seen -hidden somewhere between the other posts- different good solutions in this thread, but all had a flaw somewhere. We really need your input on the team benching as you are the people who are actually benching as a team, coming together as a team. I can honestly say that I really wanted to be living in Greece right now, because the scene seems to be fantastic, but I'm afraid that the proportion of active benchers in my country is so low that I might not see team benching entirely correct. I'm pretty sure that I'm underestimating the impact of teams on HWBot and I really want to change that. For instance, would it be a good idea to give the team moderators a view of new rules and ideas before they are actually enforced in the future?

Note: I didn't use any smilies as I should have posted a :) after every sentence.

@Tasos: Agreed, we need acceptance to keep HWBot running, we rely on our members. So, we also rely on our members to understand that what we do is purely for the sake of our members (all 8895). If we find some problems, we would like to have a clear answer straight away and have the problem solved in one, two even three PM's :).

hipro5

01-10-2008, 00:24

Massman.....I REALY opened this thread ONLY to provoke same things happening here and there and clear things up as for what means "team benching" and not and if you wish, for reference usage of this thread later on....

IF you want to hear my TRULLY and HONESTLY oppinion.....Here it is:

From the time hwbot "open it's gates" for "TEAMS", we (many of us) has lost friends from this......
TEAMS are "BAD"....ONLY INDIVIDUAL BENCHERS will keep things straight, clean, and FRIENDLY MOST OF ALL.....

This is my oppinion though with simple and straight words....

EDIT: By saying that teams are "bad", I don't mean that they are bad BUT that teams seperates people (if you can understand what I mean).....

AN7 OverClocker

01-10-2008, 00:30

Or MAYBE this show us which are the REAL friends?

Hipro,you have my Full respect man.

hipro5

01-10-2008, 00:37

Or MAYBE this show us which are the REAL friends?

Hipro,you have my Full respect man.

Yes, maybe you're right on this..... :(

Thanks M8.... :)

Astri

01-10-2008, 01:20

LevelOne

01-10-2008, 01:43

Since when a man standing up for his beliefs is considered to be loosing his reputation? That's just sad...

If only all of us had the guts of hipro5...

Obijuan83

01-10-2008, 02:38

1. Obi you're an arss.... :D

It takes one to know one. :D

knopflerbruce

01-10-2008, 04:55

This mess could be sorted pretty easily simply by showing the mods pictures of the HW so they know that the HOT members in this case owns the hardware. Sure, it's not EVIDENCE, but how can anyone PROVE anything in a case like this? The "suspiciouness" of the scores would be reduced if people can see what was used during the session. Of course no-one can know if one user's cards were used for all scores, and some of the pictured items were not used at all. As long as there is no such thing as a gpu/cpu-S/N-reading feature I don't think anyone can ask for more evidence then pics of the parts. One can't video tape the whole event, that's crazy:)

It's pretty obvious that during a bench session where many people post great scores, some might ask some questions about HW sharing. Taking a few photos during the session would solve everything. I think alot of people who bench together take pictures anyway, so it shouldn't be a big problem. I hope that's the case in the future. At least I will prove that I have access to 2 DFI Venus'es (of 1000 made) and a truckload of 939 CPUs when I go to the next bench party, as some people might want to try some of my things for different purposes.

o polonos

01-10-2008, 07:51

@ hipro ....
From where i suppose to start now ?
So lets go....
What is your problem now ? i was know about "hot brain storming" and i have say nothing ? You teammates hunting the "informators" and you asking me why i dont have say nothing ? are you serious ?
I dont deserve this status ? ok ! your opinion but it's HOT opinion ...
Until i have Richbastard (owner) and the rest of wbot crew behind me people whos support me i DESERVE this status...
And you suppose to be glad for us ... We hold this database CLEAN and you are the lider of this datababase M8.....
Why i dont deserve that ???
a) im not in your team ?
b) mayby i know to much ?
c) you dont like me ?

This question is to hipro so please only hipro response ;)

Now you was call me "informator" or "ρουφιανος" at thelab.gr right ? (it's very bad thing to greek people)
You have say to me you gonna ASK all moderators WHAT i have say right ?
Now... you have ask ? you have found something ? or coourse you not becouse it's nothing there...
Im asking you to say sorry about that title who you just stick on my back!
Why it's simple καλυτερα να σου βγει το ματι παρα το ονομα ( sorry guys i can't wright this one in english ...
NOw you call me "informator" and you are the one ?
Take as an example our friends outofspecs.gr......
They sare the SAME CPUs, the SAME iRAMS, VGAs and mobos too....
You have send that one to hwbot moderator right ???
And take one SS to be sure ;)

http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/40399/2003606300550834013_rs.jpg
And after that YOU CALLING ME INFORMATOR ???? WTF M8 ?
To get some things clean I WASENT INVOLVED AND IM DONT GONNA SAY IT AGAIN
FROM NOW ONE HOT DOSEN'T EXIST TO ME im don't gonna take any action with your team ....
Something more .... WHOS HAVE MAKE SO BIG TOPIC ? YOU HAVE !

I have say much more but that not gonna change nothing anyway.....

hipro5

01-10-2008, 08:14

Maybe all of you that get involved on this, should make a coffee, relax and read that topic couple of times. Then think why we bench for....

Hipro5, you fight here for hwbot points but in every post of yours you loosing reputation points, a reputation that you build for many years.

Astri, look at the post below to yours.....

PLUS......I have PROVEN HERE in hwbot, that I "personally" don't CARE about hwpoints by REMOVING ALL of my scores/points....
AFTER some discussion I had with some guys and after they "persuaded" me in a way to upload them again to help MY TEAM, I re-upload them once again.....I re-upload them NOT for me BUT for my TEAM AND ONLY....

"Reputation".......Hmmmm.......A "big word"......WHAT has this "reputation" of mine given me till now except from some hardware this LAST YEAR?.....
Does it feeds me?.....Does it feeds my family?.....NO......So I don't care.....
I have spent thousands of $ ALL these years for my hobby.....I have spent THAT much that you cannot even imagine.....I have divorced my x-wife and quit my family for my hobby....I didn't have to eat or to buy cigarettes just to buy hardware for my hobby......I have shut down my other business in another city for my hobby.....
ONLY from the "ABIT IC7 series motherboard", I have ~10 of them burned down in my place here......
WHAT ELSE does this God damn hobby needs from me?.... :(

I speak......Yes, I speak when I see something wrong.....Some people like it and some not.....I don't care....
I prefer to speak than hiding myself behind the curtains to "play the nice guy".....I'm a nice guy but I'm also "straight to my feelings" and I have never hidden from anyone or anything......
Yes I have made wrongs some times and I have admitted that....We are humans and sometimes we make wrongs.....

"Reputation"......WHICH of you new guys remember the REAL "old school" benchers that they have ALSO dedicate their own life on this damn hobby of ours.....
Do you know the name: "JCviggen".....the name: "OPAINTER".....the name: "Digital Jesus".....the name:....the name:....the name:.....?
I bet you don't.......and do you know what.....Overclocking community IS A WAY OF LIVING and you MUST LEARN its "history" before you start or quit.....It's a "Nation of its own"......Countries have their own history.....people have their own history......Overclocking community has its own history as well..... :)

"Reputation"......An "empty word" with no meaning to me........It may means something to some guys BUT for me is worthless.......MAN counts, NO it's "reputation" as you mean it......

When you don't say anything, you are good to everyones eyes.....When you say something, you don't expect from everyone to follow your thoughts.....Some may like you and some not.....
When you say the things as they are, some will like you and some not.....
Well, I prefer to say the things as they are and as I believe they are and loose some, than don't say anything and keep it inside me to "play it nice guy"......You know, when you keep things inside your mind, things that you want to say but you don't, some day you may start hate everyone and everything and that's not healthy..... ;)

Anyways.......that was a long post for me - though I wanted to write down more - but I'm not used to long posts..... :)

@ Obi : You're an arss (as for me :D) .....BUT I respect/like the way of yours that you say what you have to say and don't hide like many others do.... ;):D

hipro5

01-10-2008, 08:31

@ Polonos: From the time that you got involved with hwbot crew, you have messed up FOUR GREEK FORUMS......IF I'm wrong on this please correct me......FOUR GREEK FORUMS were f(l)ucked up by you, by fighting each other, etc.....USERS can speak for themselves....

YES you may spend your free time for hwbot....YES they may need you as a Moderator......YES you have done a GOOD job till now as for hwbot......

NOOOOO you have messed up ALL GREEK O/C community.....
You SHOULDN'T be involved with Greek forums if you wanted to be a Moderator of hwbot......
You shouldn't have the title of "police dep. of hwbot" (it meant that).....
You SHOULD NOT SPEAK about hwbot into the Greek forums and how much you have "helped" us.....

When someone from a Greek forum says something to you and then you go to another Greek forum and say that thing to another person and visa-versa, you JUST frustrate things by doing so and nothing more.....

PLEASE keep up the good work you're doing with hwbot and leave us Greek forums alone......Thanks.... :)

P.S. Polonos.........THAT'S why I made it PUBLIC.......P.Ms sometimes frustrate things.......PUBLIC is MUCH BETTER as for me, so ALL people will know what's going on in a story and anyone could say his own oppinion..... ;)

.

Massman

01-10-2008, 08:35

A 12th page? Didn't see that :)

Guys, please re-read my comment (second half of alinea 1 + alinea 2 + alinea 3) and think about it. Respect and reputation have nothing to do with HWBot guidelines and both words can upset so many people that those should not be used in public :).

@Hipro: There's nothing wrong with saying what you feel, hell people should do it more, but always try to choose your words and make sure you're not creating an emotional tsunami of something which is purely based on facts ("what has happened?"). Shouting doesn't always work, being friendly does :).

Offtopic: Seems like I will have to watch my steps on CeBit :eek: :D

o polonos

01-10-2008, 08:44

You was messed befor i comming and please don't say NO .... ;)
Where is "sorry" for sticking me "informator" title ? i mean that one!
It's not my fould for not-merged teams .... When we talking about money and glory then loves and friendhsip don't have place M8....
OK we are not in the same team but in every country have more then ONE team and things move on.....
You don't like us becouse we are oofs ? FINE but please say to your teammates to stop all this FLAMES !
I have realize some thing now George.... In the my begin my point was "points" now it's not.... I like better my friends to benching togheter and we dont post scores at hwbot ... why ? we want to stay friends.... And i dont give ## about points etc why ? to be good ocer you dont need this points ;)
To be honnest ..... if you want please ban me from thelab.gr to not messed up thing again... i don't need nothing from all this to be happy person...... ;)
But nope i don't gonna leave from nowhere ....
EDIT worst of all this ?? you don't know many things (if i was involved and where i was but you still have (bad) opinion
As i say in previous post from now one HOT don't exist to me ;) and we will see if something gonna change ok ? ;)

Borg

01-10-2008, 08:47

I have spent thousands of $ ALL these years for my hobby.....I have spent THAT much that you cannot even imagine.....I have divorced my x-wife and quit my family for my hobby....I didn't have to eat or to buy cigarettes just to buy hardware for my hobby......I have shut down my other business in another city for my hobby.....
ONLY from the "ABIT IC7 series motherboard", I have ~10 of them burned down in my place here......
WHAT ELSE does this God damn hobby needs from me?.... :(

hi hipro
hard to believe that ur hobby still remain a hobby , it became a job for u
(soz for the disturbed, continue :D )

hipro5

01-10-2008, 09:06

Offtopic: Seems like I will have to watch my steps on CeBit :eek: :D

:DNo.......You know that I ADMIRE you the MOST of the hwbot....Not calling names but YOU (as for me at least) ARE the hwbot....
Richbastard IS the "head" of it and you're the boddy.....
If anyone says that's not like this, then he's wrong.....
On CEBIT for SURE we are going to have fun this year cuz I will have NOTHING to do there except some "walking" and fooling around.....So I will have PLENTY of FREE time despite of last year which I was VERY buzy from 9 am to 9pm..... :D

hi hipro
hard to believe that ur hobby still remain a hobby , it became a job for u
(soz for the disturbed, continue :D )

Hobby IS a hobby and job IS a job.....Don't compare those two things together.....One has nothing to do with the other.... ;):)
Well maybe there is a tiny connection between two of them.....I'm trying to make the BEST for my job by taking examples (knowledge) from my hobby..... ;)
.....and PLEASE don't talk about the "computer parts" hipro-tech is making cuz UP TO NOW, we have given MORE money into this than we have TAKEN.....So, you could call it a hobby this too IF it doesn't give you any money....Despite it takes you MORE...... ;)

Borg

01-10-2008, 09:10

i respect ur age and that means that i respect and ur words ;) (no matter if i aggree or not :) )

Astri

01-10-2008, 09:12

hipro5

01-10-2008, 09:20

Hipro maybe i could explain you in Greek cause english is not my best :)

You are the overclocking god for most of ppl out there, including me. A god dosent spend his time on such threads. Anyway, i will not post anymore about those sh1t.

take care

God is only ONE......ALL others are just "humans".....Don't "stick" to a title that people give to other people.....It means nothing.....
Nothing to me at least.....
Yes there are "THE benchers" out there......BUT they are not "Gods".... :)

I spend my time for my team.....IF this team wasn't existing, I assure you that I wouldn't even involved in such things as I always did....

On a side note: Keep benching and have fun.... IF you lose the "fun of benching", then stop doing it......It ain't worth it.....;)

i respect ur age and that means that i respect and ur words ;) (no matter if i aggree or not :) )

Borg don't "tease" me about my age...... :D :p

OPB thinks that I am 60 years old and he expects the day I die as he wrote in his forums.....He thinks that I'll die before him...... :D:p

o polonos

01-10-2008, 09:24

Borg

01-10-2008, 09:39

[B]Borg don't "tease" me about my age...... :D :p

OPB thinks that I am 60 years old and he expects the day I die as he wrote in his forums.....He thinks that I'll die before him...... :D:p

imao :D
quit smoking asap ...u will die soon enough before u will see the rise of AMD again ... lol

hipro5

01-10-2008, 09:59

@ hipro one more thing
About this QX9650 ES .... Pcmagazine have send this cpu to unseen and doom before you gonna get this one ?
Anyway when guys have take this cpu is wasent "your" CPU im right ??
That was "pcmagazine" property

ONCE AGAIN, you KNEW that they BOTH USED THE EXACT SAME CPU and they have BOTH uploaded CPU related bencies and you have done/said NOTHING ABOUT THAT TILL NOW.......WHY?.....Aren't you following the rules of hwbot?...... :)

Richbastard said (according to hwbot's rules) that ONLY ONE SET OF CPU benchies SHOULD be RUN with ONE CPU......That "CPU set" was MINE FIRST (you could check the dates of the resaults for it)..... ;)

imao :D
quit smoking asap ...u will die soon enough before u will see the rise of AMD again ... lol

To see WHAT?...... :D You remind me of our "dreamer esdee"..... :D

.

DevilCry

01-10-2008, 10:12

To see WHAT?...... :D You remind me of our "dreamer esdee"..... :DWhat's wrong to be a dreamer Hipro5.You were a dreamer too once upon a time and your dreams come true:p

hipro5

01-10-2008, 10:14

What's wrong to be a dreamer Hipro5.You were a dreamer too once upon a time and your dreams come true:p

Nothing wrong at all......I was a dreamer and I still am..... ;) :D

Monstru

01-10-2008, 10:22

Now I see it all. All my respect hipro, it takes a great man to speak out his feelings like that, and it takes a great man to take time to prove something and not say it from the beginning. I am sorry if I ever misjudged you guys in this thread, it is clearly that some thing I had absolutely no idea about. RESPECT!

Also......I am afraid that hipro really has a point here:

IF you want to hear my TRULLY and HONESTLY oppinion.....Here it is:

From the time hwbot "open it's gates" for "TEAMS", we (many of us) has lost friends from this......
TEAMS are "BAD"....ONLY INDIVIDUAL BENCHERS will keep things straight, clean, and FRIENDLY MOST OF ALL.....

This is my oppinion though with simple and straight words....

EDIT: By saying that teams are "bad", I don't mean that they are bad BUT that teams seperates people (if you can understand what I mean).....

:(

T_M

01-10-2008, 10:24

Can i make a comment that is nothing to do with any particular team:

The moment a team starts to think of ways to maximise their point any other way than just good old individuals benchmarking, then trouble is brewing.

Sure go ahead and have team benches, while it does complicate things only slightly more than individuals, just do it cleanly and with no intent to maximise team points. Much like that session i recently did in Taiwan where i claimed all the points and my benchpartner claimed none, or another session in Aus with all of Team.AU where the owner of the hardware claimed the points.

eleven

01-10-2008, 10:47

// Problem has already been discussed in PM with Hadji_a ...

hipro5

01-10-2008, 11:00

According to the existing rules - if you like - of hwbot, ONLY ONE CPU MUST have cpu related benchies....
The above benchies where done with the EXACT SAME CPU that it has ALREADY UPLOADED RESAULTS to hwbot and it's "forbiden" to re-upload any other cpu related benchies with the SAME one.... It doesn't matter by whom it was given.....It matters that it was THE EXACT SAME CPU..... ;)

By saying this, I just want to say that this hwbot rule is not "accurate".....
What if I sell MY CPU to another user of my team?.....can't he upload his resaults with HIS (now for example) CPU?....

Thanks Monstru :)

.

Unseen

01-10-2008, 11:23

I am waiting some explanations from hwbot crew about removing some scores from my account without EVEN send me a pm or email. The scores were with a qx9650 that was given from intel to pcmagazine and then to me as i am a reviewer for them. After some days i returned it to pcmag. I can scan documents from my company that proves my words. After that i dont know where is the cpu. And of course all the hardware that i am benching with is from the magazine.

Also i want explanations about removing 3D scores that i had from the last event. Only me has upload them and all the hardware was provided by the multirama shop.

I want FULL explanations please and i hope my words count the same with the "other" members.

Thanks
Christos

hipro5

01-10-2008, 11:44

You know that the CPU you got from PCMagazine.gr was the one that I have benched two weeks or so before that....So where is the wrong here by following the hwbot one rule?....
ONE CPU can have cpu related benchmarks....At least this is what I understand till now....
Though this rule must change cuz it's not accurate...

Massman

01-10-2008, 11:54

This rule applies to team benching and as far as I know you guys are not in the same team. Little mistake, I assume, but RB is clearing this up with hadji_a, Unseen :).

eleven

01-10-2008, 11:58

// Problem has already been discussed in PM with Hadji_a ...

First of all thanks for deleting my post.............

I wasnt refering to the loss of points by deleting the results but at richba5tard's action to delete them with out asking any kind off explanations.
just by Hipro DEMAND

i dont know about the Problem that has already been discussed in PM with Hadji_a because i cant get in contact with him a.t.m but i belive
this kind of action from richba5tard's side is somethink to concern the hole HW bot community

Unseen

01-10-2008, 11:58

@h5 Sorry my friend but i havent ask your opinion. I can't do everytime research about the hardware i am getting before benching. That cpu was nobody's property. It was a reviewing sample for the magazine and i can proove that with papers.

I am waiting the OFFICIAL answer from hwbot crew about my results. Probably i am not allowed to bench from now on because i dont buy hardware.

My msn is unseen@in.gr

AN7 OverClocker

01-10-2008, 12:01

Spyrus

01-10-2008, 12:09

I think Unseen got a good point here.
If it is the same cpu but a third person is owned this (pc-magazine) then it is legal unseen's result and also hipro's.
The rule is for the same team but for different teams it does not matter (is it as selling
to a third-unrelated person). So the points are not calculated for one team with same cpu where we have the problem so far.
@Hipro i think the rule you mentioned has a black hole (it should work within team but not outside team)

hipro5

01-10-2008, 12:16

This rule applies to team benching and as far as I know you guys are not in the same team. Little mistake, I assume, but RB is clearing this up with hadji_a, Unseen :).

I assume that this post of Massman have cleared things up..... ;)

Unseen

01-10-2008, 12:18

@an7 I informed about that the day i got it. Why should i consider that? We are in different team and the cpu was no ones property.
And of course if you dont have anything else that counts in current situation please dont quote me again. My questions are reffering to hwbot crew and not to HOT members.

Thanks

AN7 OverClocker

01-10-2008, 12:24

you are at HOT's thread m8.
If you dont want, dont post here.Simple things ;)

PS.I dont care about the points or the results.
But i was just wondered
And as you said "Αυτο που μου αρεσει περισσοτερο ειναι οτι ειμαστε μια παρεα Στο διαολο ρε οι ποντοι!(What I like more is that we are a company,f(l)uck the points) !"

SF3D

01-10-2008, 12:38

Unseen- Your scores are valid and we did too quick conclusions with them. Those scores will be unblocked soon. We all apologise for this confusion.

Elefsinaras and Giorgos. I made mistake with your results. They are done separately. Sorry about that!

To all: This thread is too large considering what was the problem, but there is also something good in here. Some users post their ideas and development proposals. We have to start new thread, where users can tell their ideas about these issues we have at the moment.
We are trying to do new rules soon, so everyone knows what is right and what is wrong when submitting results. After that HWbot should be even more fair to everyone and for every team :)

Unseen

01-10-2008, 12:45

@an7 I wont be in conversation with you. Sorry for that and stop teasing me and my team members.

@SF3D
Apologies accepted. Hoping for better communication in the future.

AN7 OverClocker

01-10-2008, 12:56

@an7 I wont be in conversation with you. Sorry for that and stop teasing me and my team members.

@SF3D
Apologies accepted. Hoping for better communication in the future.

Me, teasing you and your team members?
Just omg

This is the problem.
We never had a conversation.....an open conversation and look how things are.

Massman

01-10-2008, 13:00

Sir AN7_OverClocker, this has been the last post of you that has nothing to do with the issue of hardware sharing in this thread. Understood?!

AN7 OverClocker

01-10-2008, 13:23

Why sir Massman you have this style?
My apologies.

darthtony

01-10-2008, 14:16

@Massman
Please can you clear out the curent rules for hardware sharing&team benching (with examples)?
please :-)

Massman

01-10-2008, 14:35

Spyrus

01-10-2008, 16:10

I want a clear out on this:
I have one cpu on my own for example E6850.
I have post all my 3D results with this cpu.
Someone from my team is giving me a QX9650 to play.
Can i bench again 3d with this cpu (but the gpu is mine and is used again)?

Massman

01-10-2008, 16:22

Monstru

01-10-2008, 16:22

Massman:

I do not agree with these rules:

- post results with hardware you have for review, send by the manufacturer himself
- FORBIDDEN: post results not done by you / not your hardware.

What if a magazine or a store gives me a CPU to review. Or what if a friend of mine that has nothing to do with HWB and benching gives me his CPU to play with? That is not sent by manufacturer, but by a third party supplier :)

Of course, nobody should ever post results that are not done by themselves, I totally agree with that one :)

mariosalice

01-10-2008, 16:32

Summarized the rules regarding team benching like they are now. Some need to be re-written or add some line to + need to add sponsored events. These rules are about CPU and GPU, not motherboards/ram/tweaks.

Bench alone:
- post results with your own hardware
- post results with hardware you have for review, send by the manufacturer himself
- FORBIDDEN: post results not done by you / not your hardware.

Bench session with more than 1 person:
- post result to account of owner of the hardware (3d: vga, 2d: cpu)
- when sli bench with two owners (each one card) post result to one account (you can chose which account)
- FORBIDDEN: post multiple results of the same session spread over different accounts
- FORBIDDEN: share cpu on 2D and/or gpu on 3D benches with team members to gain more points.
You forgot CF :)
Some ppl own ES or regular hardware and are not members of hwbot or are not overclockers.
Why not bench this hardware?

Now things are a bit more clear.
Although I do not agree with exchanging hardware restrictions, you might consider the following.
The "one result per CPUs (for 2D tests) or GPUs (for 3D tests)" rule,
I believe it might be better to restrict one result per CPUs or GPUs, no matter who gets the points.
In case of benching with lended hardware from another hwbot member, we should define the owner of the CPUs for 2D tests or the GPUs for 3D tests.
For example I allow someone else to run SPi 1m with my CPU and upload the score he/she got.
In the above case, the owner can upload any other 2D tests, except SPi 1m.
After the other guy deletes his score, SPi 1m is open again.
In case of disagreement between the owner and the other person, both scores should go down.

The "In multi settings, use different mobos and at least one different CPU (for 2D tests) or GPU (for 3D tests)" rule
I propose the above "multi settings" rule.
For example we may give three of our video cards to someone else to bench Quad SLI on their mobo and we may also bench our cards for tri-SLI on our own mobo. We both can upload results.

Massman

01-10-2008, 16:40

My suggestions.
The "one result per CPUs (for 2D tests) or GPUs (for 3D tests)" rule,
I believe it might be better to restrict one result per CPUs or GPUs, no matter who gets the points.
In case of benching with lended hardware from another hwbot member, we should define the owner of the CPUs for 2D tests or the GPUs for 3D tests.
For example I allow someone else to run SPi 1m with my CPU and upload the score he/she got.
In the above case, the owner can upload any other 2D tests, except SPi 1m.
After the other guy deletes his score, SPi 1m is open again.
In case of disagreement between the owner and the other person, both scores should go down.

Rules that stands above all other rules: "Do not upload results you have not achieved yourself" :). So if someone else benches your CPU, technically you are the owner, so you should upload the result. But that's not allowed as you have not done the benching.

The "In multi settings, use different mobos and at least one different CPU (for 2D tests) or GPU (for 3D tests)" rule
I propose the above "multi settings" rule.
For example we may give three of our video cards to someone else to bench Quad SLI on their mobo and we may also bench our cards for tri-SLI on our own mobo. We both can upload results.

Restriction on the SLI/CF-thing is not a bad idea, really. I'll have to think of a way to formulate it to make it controlable.

Thanks for the input, mate.

mariosalice

01-10-2008, 17:01

Rules that stands above all other rules: "Do not upload results you have not achieved yourself" :). So if someone else benches your CPU, technically you are the owner, so you should upload the result. But that's not allowed as you have not done the benching.

Restriction on the SLI/CF-thing is not a bad idea, really. I'll have to think of a way to formulate it to make it controlable.

Thanks for the input, mate.
My suggestion was to keep only the above two rules and trash the rest (I mean the rules on post 151).
This way we may bench with a CPU we did not buy.
After all you do not care who is rich or not but who benches a CPU or GPU.
On the other hand we do not get multiple results and points from one CPU.

It might be easy to add a tick about the owner..
Another Hwbot member owns the main CPU (or GPU) (0). [owner]

darthtony

01-10-2008, 17:34

Why can't I lend my cpu to others?(my team) I cant understand!(why is that rule?)
Question:I can't post multiple results of one session ONLY if I bench with others?

Let's say that I bench with my friend, with HIS hardware.(according to the rules, the results should be uploaded to his account)
But if we both agree that the results are published to my account?
Why should'nt I upload them?
In conclusion why don't you allow hw sharing?

Massman

01-10-2008, 19:11

An example has been given in this thread:

For instance, do you think the following situation should be approved?

You have an insane E2180, which exceeds all other cpu's except mine. I have a golden chip which runs about 150MHz faster than yours. There's no problem, you're second and beaten by a better cpu.
BUT, today I have invited all my OCTB-friends and I will let them, one by one, bench the cpu on their system with their tweaks, in total the 19 members of my team.
Remember: it's their skill which is being tested.
So the day after the benching, all upload their score of the E2180 and turns out ... you're not 2nd anymore, you moved to place 21th, having no points at all (loss will be: 7 benches x 10 points = 70 points). Will you still be satisfied by the fact that "all used their own system, just their own skill"?

knopflerbruce

01-10-2008, 20:29

An example has been given in this thread:

I think he means that his friend is not a HWBot member, or at least doesn't use that particular CPU to get points in 2d benchmarks.

IMO that's OK, as that particular CPU is not getting points for, say, 2 spi1m runs by 2 people.

hipro5

01-10-2008, 20:36

So Massman as you say, I could lend MY CPU to my teamates to bench with their VGAs BUT upload ONLY the 3D Benhies right?...:)

Massman

01-10-2008, 20:36

Okay, but what if that person decides to join HWBot after two weeks? How can we be sure that person is not on HWBot?

hipro5

01-10-2008, 20:38

So, I CAN'T share MY CPU nor MY VGAs to ANY of my teamates right?... :)
EDIT: Though your above post confuses me a bit.... :)

o polonos

01-10-2008, 20:41

So, I CAN'T share MY CPU nor MY VGAs to ANY of my teamates right?... :)
EDIT: Though your above post confuses me a bit.... :)
You can share your CPU for 3D and VGA'S for 2D ( but in the second i can't see the reason to do that) ;)

mariosalice

01-10-2008, 20:44

Okay, but what if that person decides to join HWBot after two weeks? How can we be sure that person is not on HWBot?
He has no right to post the specific benches he aloud his friend to bench, unless the uploaded results are deleted.
I gave a similar example about this.
Remember "one result per CPUs (for 2D tests) or GPUs (for 3D tests)"
And again
It might be easy to add a tick about the owner..
Another Hwbot member owns the main CPU (or GPU) (0). [owner]
So the new member has no right to bench the same benchmarks with his CPU.

mariosalice

01-10-2008, 21:04

jesus christ what a lot of garbage in this thread. Is it so hard to follow common sense when it comes down to hardware "sharing"?

if you own a VGA card/CPU and sell it to somebody else, you can keep your scores and the new owner can submit scores to HWbot under his account.

that's about the majority of the submits now, hardware bought from friends or shops;

the exception to the rule is SHARING (lending) hardware to another person and that person submitting results with the hardware he DOES NOT OWN to his account.

How hard is it to "understand" that little rule. even after #165 posts some don't get it?I agree with you about all this garbage.
Anyone can say that he bought the hardware in sharing hardware cases.
This true actually since sharing is some kind of an exchange. You get and you give.
Then there is no reason to enforce ownership rules and you agree on that with me.

Anyway the ownership rule as posted by the mods forbids any user from getting hwboints in case he is not the owner of the hardware.
So since someone sells his hardware he should also delete his scores, according to the garbage logic.

darthtony

01-10-2008, 21:24

An example has been given in this thread:
Yeah, but let's say that all of the results are posted to your account,
what's the difference?(at your example)
Question:I can't post multiple results of one session ONLY if I bench with others?

I think that you should reconsider and update the rule, beacause, as mariosalice said, anyone can say that he bought the hw from a previous user.
Or that it was a coincidence.(having the same hardware)
You have no accurate way to verify that the results came from different hw.
Let's open a thread abou this and propose ideas ;)

mariosalice

01-10-2008, 21:36

HWBot relies on its users for moderation.....

regarding Unseen's CPU scores, those should have never been touched, when Unseen benchmarked the CPU it was in his possession and ownership; if you are going to try to block all scores from CPUs previously "owned" by anybody else, we can close the site, since all of them are owned originally by Intel/AMD/*
Well users do not know the rule about ownership.
You don't know it either I think.

I agree that Unseen's CPU scores shouldn't come down.
Though according to those strange rules we see lately they are illegal since the "owner" was and still is Hipro5.
Then as I said the owner actually is the one that holds the CPU-GPU the moment of the bench.
It is an exchange.
There are so many World records done with lended material that the ownership rule looks really strange.

On the other hand Intel is not a hwbot member and doesn't cound as an owner.

The last month lots of HOT members benched for many many hours.
Our main effort the last month in one of our forums was to give a chance to all members to meet each other and to exchange ideas.
We called it HOT brainstorming.
This includes benching in places with extreme cooling facilities, which is our main goal.
Of course, when you see lots of submitted scores it is apparent that some of them will look similar.

T_M

01-11-2008, 03:31

You have no accurate way to verify that the results came from different hw.

Your posts sounds really negative man.
HWB primarily relies on the honesty of the users, that is no secret, and massman has written already many times a good response for this.

hipro5

01-11-2008, 07:56

.....the exception to the rule is SHARING (lending) hardware to another person and that person submitting results with the hardware he DOES NOT OWN to his account.
How hard is it to "understand" that little rule. even after #165 posts some don't get it?

I will stay on this and ask once again (yes I will ask EVERY modarator in hwbot :D )

Can I lend my CPU to other users in my team to bench 3D (not 2D) with THEIR VGAs?....:)

ALSO a tip that a user in our forum had (apparently this user doesn't Overclock at all I think :D )
RENTAL IS LEAGAL....
So IF I RENT my hardware to a user, AUTOMATICALY HE IS THE OWNER of my VGAs (for example) and he could do them whatever he wishes.....HE will be the OWNER LEAGALY for the period of time that he has RENT my stuff.....
You have to think about that too cuz it's LEAGAL.... ;)

Massman

01-11-2008, 08:24

ALSO a tip that a user in our forum had (apparently this user doesn't Overclock at all I think :D )
RENTAL IS LEAGAL....
So IF I RENT my hardware to a user, AUTOMATICALY HE IS THE OWNER of my VGAs (for example) and he could do them whatever he wishes.....HE will be the OWNER LEAGALY for the period of time that he has RENT my stuff.....
You have to think about that too cuz it's LEAGAL.... ;)

HEY !!!

As far as I know (and have said) lending and renting hardware is illegal on HWBOT. Why are you guys trying to bend the rules? It seems to me that everyone understands the rule besides HOT? Why???

Lending/renting hardware is not allowed. Did you lend E. or G. your VGA, yes or no?

I can't make this even more simple guys. Even the situation with Unseen is clear as water: he gets the cpu from a magazine to write a review => he's allowed to post results. Hipro gets a cpu from intel => he's allowed to post results.

18 pages of ramblings .... :)

SF3D

01-11-2008, 08:38

hipro5

01-11-2008, 08:43

Hey Massman take it easy M8..... :D

I - in purpose - said the word "rent" JUST to clarify any newer incomes from users that will think to do so considering that is leagal to the outer world.....

Clearing things up is that in hwbot lending OR renting hardware to ANY of your TEAMATES IS ILLEGAL....;)

I DID NOT lend OR rent MY VGAs to any of the guys you say......
I give ONLY giorgos th. ONLY my VGAs that I HAVE NEVER UPLOAD ANY RESAULT WITH THEM ON hwbot..... They are my spare ones that are on air and I HAVE NEVER USED THEM to get points from hwbot...... :)

Is it clear now?...... :)

Now a same question to you as I did to jmke.....

Can I lend my CPU to other users in my team to bench 3D (not 2D) with THEIR VGAs?.... :)

.

hipro5

01-11-2008, 08:44

Hipro- Why? Don't they have money or why you have to "rent" your stuff to other members? For a bencher like me this sounds really ridiculous, cause I have to pay everything myself.

OCTeamFinland broke up, because some members didn't want to be in a team, where some users did this hardware sharing. Now we have Team Finland and this HW sharing rule is in use. Easy and it is working perfectly. Every member in our team accepts this rule without exceptions.

Maybe we just think some things differently in here..

I asure you that WE do the same here.......and IF I personaly "catch" anyone of us doing "strange things" I will block him and his scores.... ;)

I said the example for "renting" above coz we may hear it in the future in here so we HAVE to clear some things up from now...... ;)

EDIT: Now that you are here too..... :D

Can I lend my CPU to other users in my team to bench 3D (not 2D) with THEIR VGAs?.... :)

.

Massman

01-11-2008, 08:54

[B]I DID NOT lend OR rent MY VGAs to any of the guys you say......
I give ONLY giorgos th. ONLY my VGAs that I HAVE NEVER UPLOAD ANY RESAULT WITH THEM ON hwbot..... They are my spare ones that are on air and I HAVE NEVER USED THEM to get points from hwbot...... :)

Is it clear now?...... :)

So technically you're sharing right?

hipro5

01-11-2008, 09:05

So technically you're sharing right?

NO......Why?......Because there have been NO RESAULTS BY ME ON hwbot from THEM.... So I DIDN'T "share" anything that has PROVIDED resaults on hwbot by ME..... Speaking "technically".... ;) :)

What about my question above now?.... :)

.

Massman

01-11-2008, 09:09

F117

01-11-2008, 09:13

Hi there....i could like to make 1 question.... If i can not afford buying top hardware staff, but i am a good bencher (know how to mod, tweaks etch) how i suppose to get some points?! could you plz give me a solution to that? i only can Lend/rent vga of cpu from friends outsite hwbot you mean ? :-S if my teamate doesnt uses this hw for bench i CANT lend it?
thank you :)

Massman

01-11-2008, 09:15

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=677872
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=677893
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=677888
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=677888
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=677868
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=677869
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=677858
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=677853

These are not done with your CPU?

hipro5

01-11-2008, 09:19

Massman

01-11-2008, 09:22

My question is: has these benches been done with your (read: do you own?) cpu?

hipro5

01-11-2008, 09:25

To put it out in results:

Someone else, of your team, benching with YOUR GPU and therefor hardware sharing
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=679384
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=676995
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=679524
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=679525
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=676968
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=679526
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=676965
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=679390
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=676974

I REPEAT MYSELF.......
ALL THE ABOVE WERE DONE WITH THE VGAs I DON'T USE for hwbot to get points for MYSELF.......
Can't you understand that?.....Is it ILLEGAL for hwbot?....Cuz IF NOW you will call it "illegal" then you MUST re-read what you have writen some pages before..... :)

Someone else, of your team, benching with YOUR CPU and therefor hardware sharing
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=677015
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=676992
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=676961
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=679477
http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=679457

Correct me if I'm wrong

Which of ALL THEM again?....

http://www.hipro-tech.com/images/hipro5/QX9650_RETAIL/5_RETAILS.jpg

Massman

01-11-2008, 09:28

I repeat my question: Are the benches done with your CPU? (any cpu you own)

hipro5

01-11-2008, 09:29

hipro5

01-11-2008, 09:35

So Massman as you say, I could lend MY CPU to my teamates to bench with their VGAs BUT upload ONLY the 3D Benhies right?...:)

You can share your CPU for 3D and VGA'S for 2D ( but in the second i can't see the reason to do that) ;)

:)

.

Massman

01-11-2008, 09:44

And the 2D benchmarks?

hipro5

01-11-2008, 09:48

And the 2D benchmarks?

I REPEAT MYSELF.......
ALL THE ABOVE from giorgos th., WERE DONE WITH THE VGAs I DON'T USE for hwbot to get points for MYSELF.......
Is it ILLEGAL for hwbot?....Cuz IF NOW you will call it "illegal" then you MUST re-read what you have writen some pages before.:)

Let's go for the VGAs now.... :)

.

Massman

01-11-2008, 09:52

I'm talking about the SUPERPI/PIFAST/CPU-Z/... => Are the QX9650 scores done with your cpu?

hipro5

01-11-2008, 09:58

I'm talking about the SUPERPI/PIFAST/CPU-Z/... => Are the QX9650 scores done with your cpu?

They were done NOT with MY CPU that I HAVE ALREADY UPLOADED scores to MY account BUT with OTHER CPUs that I HAVE NEVER used OR UPLOAD ANY results on hwbot for MYSELF.....

.

Massman

01-11-2008, 10:01

Okay, that's the answer I wanted on 24th of December ;)

hipro5

01-11-2008, 10:04

Okay, that's the answer I wanted on 24th of December ;)

:) I was too buzy you know.....Now that I'm a bit relaxed, I'll be here and there.... :)

F117

01-11-2008, 10:06

massman if it is possible can you answer my question plz :)

Massman

01-11-2008, 10:08

:) I was too buzy you know.....Now that I'm a bit relaxed, I'll be here and there.... :)

C'mon, you replied to my PM's on XS ;) :)

T_M

01-11-2008, 10:33

So in summary of the last two pages, Hipro is sharing his hardware that is not being used by himself to gain scores on hwbot.
The quesiton is the legality of this.

F117

01-11-2008, 10:54

why this should be illegal? what is the problem? if this is illegal then only if you can afford buying one top VGA (280E+) you can bench? :-S :-S wowwwwww..... money talks! :-S

hipro5

01-11-2008, 10:56

C'mon, you replied to my PM's on XS ;) :)

Yes because it was FAST....... ;)

I wanted to write down ALL the things I wrote on that LONG post of mine PLUS I HAD to be ready and free to reply back.....;) :)

GoriLLakoS

01-11-2008, 11:37

Ok, i just read the whole topic,the last time i read it, the last page was page 13..now i see page 20.

Should i start writting down everything or it is ok to leave it like it is now cause everyone has clamed down?

It will be a huge story but a clear one from my point of view!
So, it may be wrong to some others!

If you want i can do it but my "Gorillakos" name will be "damaged" to many users eyes..and maybe to my fellows eyes also.

I can do it if you want so.
I don't give a shit for my name in this Visual(Internet) world...it is not my real world...just a f*cking fake world that ppl is fighting, FOR NOTHING !

Writting the truth about everything is too easy for me behind a keyboard and a monitor..but then, i will dissapear...

SF3D

01-11-2008, 13:40

darthtony

01-11-2008, 14:13

Your posts sounds really negative man.
HWB primarily relies on the honesty of the users, that is no secret, and massman has written already many times a good response for this.

I think that most users here are honest, but some of them may not be!
;)

knopflerbruce

01-11-2008, 14:23

So in summary of the last two pages, Hipro is sharing his hardware that is not being used by himself to gain scores on hwbot.
The quesiton is the legality of this.

I think this discussion has missed something important: the problem isn't that someone has like 4 spare qx9650 without any hwbot scores that he decides to let members of his team use for a session. What's importnant to avoid is that the SAME CPU is used several times within the same team.

I'm sorry, but I don't see ANY reason why someone can't share a piece of HW that hasn't been used to make points here in the past. The ownership rule was made to avoid people sharing GOLDEN chips, not spare chips they won't use for hwbot anyway.

darthtony

01-11-2008, 15:49

if I upload many scores from my cpu in my account, only the highest counts?

Massman

01-11-2008, 16:11

if I upload many scores from my cpu in my account, only the highest counts?

Yes :)

Spyrus

01-11-2008, 16:28

Also i would point that from the rules posted earlier i can have another person's memories and/or mobo and/or cooling (for example someone is giving me his HSF/watecooling only for benching) and still be valid when posting with my cpu and/or vga.
Is that correct?

GoriLLakoS

01-11-2008, 16:32

@SF3D I will tell you what i think and not what i know cause i will have a day to write them all down(expect if you give me your phone to call you :) )

Those guys that are fighting,visible or not[b] , before 4(? more or less) years [b]were the base for the very well known(and for me the site with the most valuable information and the biggest database regarding OC in Greece) IT site aka www.thelab.gr.

Base = The people that knows the most things and always helped the others.

They were friends, they were together, they were exchanging ideas, they were talking on the phone, they were benching under the same family.

All of us changed for various reasons.
There are not main and secondary reasons.
Every reason "helped"(in a bad way) little by little to come to this situation.
And as you can understand no one want to say "I am Sorry Dude" or "Let's make a new start" cause the ego of every one is so high that no one wants to step back.

This thread has gone far more than OFF TOPIC , and the last pages describes the Greek-Serial-For-Nothing silly war and not a set of new rules or how we can imporve hwbot engine nor the scores.

I am trying to be outside this war but it is not always easy to forget people that always "teasing" you or your team.
Everyone knows i am to HOT, i support them, i am a good friend of hipro who is too nasty many times and i am telling him to be nice but he has almost the double age of me so he is old enough to know what is he doing or know when he has right or rong, i am a friend of AN7 who is always fighting for HOT and many of the times he is doing like crazy without reason and everytime i am telling him to relax, i know in personal Mariosalice who seems to telling insane things but if you see carefully his post you will understand that he is not insane, but he analyses everything too much and searching infos from everywhere and post them.
I admit that from my job many times i give hipro hardware to test and bench for his own and i will continue doing it.
I admit that i have given mortisboy, who is an administrator also to hwbox.gr a set of 2900 to bench.
I admit that i have unlimited access to tons of hw and i am able right now to ask for 20 QX9650 and send 10 to outofspecs and 10 to HOT or give it to 20 different members to make scores.

Going to the "other side" now i know in personal but not as much as the HOT guys(cause of the distance and only) Unseen, Eleven,Xrist,Doom and some others.
Telling my thinking for them is the same as hipro And AN7.
Unseen is doing like crazy many times but as hipro is doing he knows when he has right or wrong but do not admit it.
Xrist is maybe the less negative person of OFS.
Obijuan is excactly the same with AN7 and always creating mess.

But this fight here has gone beyond HWBOT Points and reports, has gone beyond from Thelab Vs Outofspecs, has gone beyond HOT Team VS OFS Team.

This fight is based more on personal reasons and stubborn behaviours than teams, geographical areas and points.

The older memebrs of the sites/teams knows better the behind scene story, the new guys get fanatic with the olders and just go with the flow so they can fit better the "system" be one with "it" and not "exclude" them from the mass.
That is the everyday behaviour of a people that wants to enter a "new world" and it is not happening only in forums.

I have talked with hipro to change the HOT name and rename ot to something else cause overclocking is not an Ethnic Matter it is a hobby matter.
The reason i asked hipro to thing of the change is that i have talked with some of the OFS members and they told me that most of them are benching for fun and not for something else and would like to join HOT or even better HOT and OFS memebrs will join a new team but not with the name HOT cause many people consider that HOT means Hipro Overclocking Team and not Hellas Oc Team. Furhtermore, as you have seen HOT has like the central page the hipro-tech page which has nothing but cause made this team in order to connect all the greek teams it finally came like this.
The answer for those members on OFS was that"
"We are friends, we are going for cofee/drinks/food/ every Friday almost all together and you can understand Bill(Bil = Me) that we cannot leave the team like this if it not an option that all of us want because maybe we will stop our friendship with the others or the members that will stay behind they will not treat us or look at us like friends any more.
Hipro from his side, he refused.

But i think if most of the people support the idea for changing the name and have a unique team he wouldn't be so negative.

I do not want to fight with my teammates nor with OFS members.
I do not want to fight with hipro and AN7 or Unseen(m8, you fought with hipro, not with me, i feel something like cold in your last pm to me to thelab, and i do not repsesent no one except by myself aka Bill) and Obijuan.

If a solution to be the same with everybody is to delete from my "face" the name HOT, i will do it and remove all of my scores!
And if the situation will remain the same btw me and the others and btw the teams/sites again, i will push more and more people to remove their scores from bot and never replace them untill we get like the old times.

I would be very happy if i see HOT and OFS to last place of bot together with -1 points. Cause everyone is telling "We are doing it not for the points" but it seems everyhting stands for the points and it is A FALSE BULLSHIT THAT ALL THE FINGERS CAN WRITE EASILY ON A KEYBOARD OR ALL THE MOUTHS CAN SAY WITH TOO MUCH EASE.

Some people is creating all those things but they are not visible.
Some people is telling bullshit in 3rd party sites, out of ofs and thelab.gr and then others form those 2 are reading them and thinking that those are words from others.
Many times, the brain of the members is too much overwhelmed that is thinking of fantastic situations.
Some times HOT and OFS ppl are writting to their site fucking horrible things but they know that HOT are not writing to OFS forum and vice versa so they are sure enough that they will read it and get upset and vice versa again.

But once more, this is a HUGE matter that does not concern hwbot, and it is distgusting to read people 20/30/40/50/60 years old that behave like 5 -10 years old children.

I am finished with my written thoughts.
Whoever from the 2 teams want to say me a jurk, all of you have my phone number and it is open to hear you and your thoughts.

Ciao
Bill

knopflerbruce

01-11-2008, 17:01

check the meaning of boints to find out how, read my signature to start with.

Well, it's not 100% true, I have 300 points flat... Guess why? And I'm like... what? 130th?

So atm 130th place is as high as you can get without a "big" wallet;)

mariosalice

01-11-2008, 17:45

HEY !!!

As far as I know (and have said) lending and renting hardware is illegal on HWBOT. Why are you guys trying to bend the rules? It seems to me that everyone understands the rule besides HOT? Why???

Lending/renting hardware is not allowed. Did you lend E. or G. your VGA, yes or no?

I can't make this even more simple guys. Even the situation with Unseen is clear as water: he gets the cpu from a magazine to write a review => he's allowed to post results. Hipro gets a cpu from intel => he's allowed to post results.

18 pages of ramblings .... :)
As I said not even your moderators know the ownership rules.
And I think this time you changed them again.
As far as I know (and have said) lending and renting hardware is illegal on HWBOT.
Though richba5tard (Administrator) said on post No 2 (not yet a rule thought, just a suggestion).
- only the owner of the processor may submit scores in processor related benches
- only the owner of the videocard may submit scores in videocard related benches
Which is the same with the august 07 suggestion for joint sessions.
No ownership rules applied in August 07 for benching alone though.
This is new.
(Remember how you defined subteams and joint sessions).

The august 07 revision about joint sessions is this: - For videocard benchmarks (3DMark01/03/05/06, Aquamark): upload the results to the account of the owner of the videocard.
- For processor benchmarks (SuperPi1M/32M, PCMark05, wPrime32M/1024M, PiFast): upload the results to the account of the owner of the processor.
- Uploading lower scores on other accounts than the one of owner of the hardware is not allowed.

You personaly and recently put new rules on post No 151 (http://www.hwbot.org/forum/showpost.php?p=14815&postcount=151)
Though on your quoted post you changed them again.
You suggest that not only the manufacturer but also a magazine can give a CPU for benching to more than one overclockers as long as they are on different teams.
Compare this
- post results with hardware you have for review, send by the manufacturer himself
with this one
Even the situation with Unseen is clear as water: he gets the cpu from a magazine to write a review => he's allowed to post results.

So who is trying to bend the rules?
We want to know the rules and play fair.
You don't.