View Full Version : single gpu benching
i know we have been over this 4 months ago and a poll showed at that time 2x gpu would be grouped with 1x gpu or cards would be defined by how many slots they needed to work
but some time has passed and we have seen the new generation 1x gpu cards and they just cannot beat the older generation 2x gpu cards
there are many of us that would like to compete with single gpu cards and get the full amount of global points for our efforts
can we not separate out the 2x gpu cards from the 1x gpu cards
baz
IllusioN
08-04-2008, 07:02
I must agree.., never understood why a unit with 2 gpu´s ended up in singel card..???
A singel gpu is a singel gpu.., if the case holds more than one gpu its a multi gpu...
It has to be that simple.., and it would be so much more fun actually..! :-))
knopflerbruce
08-04-2008, 12:02
I must agree.., never understood why a unit with 2 gpu´s ended up in singel card..???
A singel gpu is a singel gpu.., if the case holds more than one gpu its a multi gpu...
It has to be that simple.., and it would be so much more fun actually..! :-))
We have only two categories for GPUs here, single and sli/xf. If a card like 3870x2 goes under SLI/xf, what about two 3870x2's? it would be pretty weird if BOTH go into the same category (SLI/xf). Suddenly it would be NO use to buy just one of these cards.
Maybe it's an idea to create another global category for these dual GPU cards only, if it's really that much of a problem.
Btw, if these cards can't compete with dual-GPU cards, then what about single core CPUs vs dual core CPUs vs tri-cores vs quad cores? We need some serious splitting if everything is supposed to be totally fair:D
Does it seem fair that people buy one dual-gpu card and would have to compete against people who buy two?
how many dual GPU cards do we currently have?
currently three viable...soon to be 4. Not a big deal in the grand scheme, except they are mainly the top-scoring cards and the future will see many more of them
(not including the Asus X3, 7800GT Dual or 6600GT Dual)
Does it seem fair that people buy one dual-gpu card and would have to compete against people who buy two?
Does it seem fair that people who buy two (single core) GPUs for SLI/CF have to compete with people who buy three or four?
not meant in a bitchy way, but the most obvious response to your point.....
There is no need to change the current rules.
We are not counting cores here. We count slots/sockets (PCI-E/AGP etc.) One graphics card = one slot/socket, no matter how many gpu's there are inside.
Does it seem fair that people who buy two (single core) GPUs for SLI/CF have to compete with people who buy three or four?
not meant in a bitchy way, but the most obvious response to your point.....
Too be honest, that sounds far more logical than my argument ;). You either compete against one card or multiple cards.
IllusioN
08-04-2008, 15:09
There is no need to change the current rules.
We are not counting cores here. We count slots/sockets (PCI-E/AGP etc.) One graphics card = one slot/socket, no matter how many gpu's there are inside.
:-).., I know that.., it just strike me a lil strange...
is there reason why a new global category cannot be set up for single GPU cards
i mean technically ?
edit : i have an idea
if it could be done and i could get enough sponsors to support a single gpu global category, manufacturers and private funding to cover the costs
of the setup for hwbot would that help
SF3D your mind should be more open to the needs of others here @ Hwbot there are many as shown in the last poll that would like to bench only against 1x gpu cards
bazx- We try to keep things as simple as possible. It's not me who decide these alone. I do know that there is many users who does not agree with us on this decision, but it is the best solution so far.
Intel larrabee will not be any different, cause ATI / Nvidia new gpu's are multicore design too. If there is two/many physical cores in one pcb, but the card uses still one socket, it is single card. If multiple sockets are in use, it is dual card setup.
We had this discussion already in the past and nothing have changed since that. I don't like to sound rude here, but this discussion will not bring us more categories in global points.
with the current Globle finance problems there has never been a better time to introduce a single GPU ranking system
the cards are cheap compared to the hybrid dual GPU units
i have single 4870,280gtx,9800gtx sitting here and they are going to wast as there are no points for benching them
how are we to hold our teams together when hwbot will only except the most expensive hybrid cards for global points
come on hwbot you have to find away of supporting the cash strapped 3D bench er
i want to compete @ a global level but do not want to put down £450 to do it
single GPU would return me and many others here to 3D benching
hwbot has forgotten its roots
the very people that made this site are now being pushed out by big money
there was a time when this site supported the basic bench er
it is a great shame
knopflerbruce
02-19-2009, 12:33
hwbot has forgotten its roots
the very people that made this site are now being pushed out by big money
there was a time when this site supported the basic bench er
it is a great shame
You still have HWBoints to fight for. 15 boints pr 1st place - that's pretty much IMO. Plus, dual GPU cards are MUCH less expensive now than just a few years ago. 7800gtx 512mb retailed for like $700. GTX295 goes for $500 at newegg NOW. I don't get your argument at all, really, you still needed two cards to compete in the 7800-era - $1000 now vs $1400 before. How can you say people are being pushed out by "big money" NOW and not before?:confused:
why should single gpu benching be treated like a sub class of bencher ?
with only a few points
is that all we deserve for all the work we put into benching these cards
until these mutant hybrid cards infested the single card rankings
we had a very completive single gpu ranking system
single gpu cards are much cheaper then hybrid cards that alone would be a good enough reason to have a single gpu ranking system
knopflerbruce
02-19-2009, 17:38
why should single gpu benching be treated like a sub class of bencher ?
with only a few points
is that all we deserve for all the work we put into benching these cards
until these mutant hybrid cards infested the single card rankings
we had a very completive single gpu ranking system
single gpu cards are much cheaper then hybrid cards that alone would be a good enough reason to have a single gpu ranking system
You can have the same view on alot of other stuff, too, like AMD K7. K8, PIII and so on. Lots of people work their asses off on HW that can never get really high in the global ranks, but if you should make special rules for all these subgroups it'll be a mess beyond your imagination.
Converting skill to points is not very straight-forward, unfortunately.
hold a new pole now i Dare You
see if its the same now 1 year later
and this time let me word the pole and set the categories
you seem a little uneasy at the thought of a new poll jmke
last time it was said that in 6 moths time there would be a single gpu that could take on the hybide cards
and here we are 1 year later and the hybrid cards are now faster
then 2 single gpu cards
run the poll again and we will see if minds have changed
and i will shut up for another year
from our leader 1 year and 9 days ago
I think it is very, very likely the next gen nvidia series will be much faster. Heck, i think even the G9x based 8800GTX/Ultra will be faster. :D
this never happened the hybrids have just gotten even more powerful
the manufactures are not going to stop making the hybrids and there has been one at the top of the single cards rankings now for a year
it must be time to give the single gpu back its own ranking
It's really not that easy, Bazx. Even if we would make the change in theory, RB would have to go through a lot of trouble to code it decently.
I understand what you are saying Baz, I would think it would be a good idea anyway to have single cards put into their own category as it would increase sales of single GPU's as well as Duel core GPu's.
It also gives Hwbot members the option on how they wish to bench and with what equipment.
Yes we must still have a category for the highest benches and hardware but I now think the time has come to make different leagues within Hwbot so that other members can be just as competitive in there category.
What I am suggesting is we have different categories for different hardware, yes this is a hell of a lot of work that Hwbot would have to undertake but in the end I think it would benefit everyone including hardware manufactures.
If we had a category for single GPU's, Duel core CPU's, Duel core GPU's and Quad core CPU's then the more extreme server core CPU's for Wprime.
Again I do understand how much more work this would involve, but I think for the goodness of this sport we should now be looking into running different categories with maximum points for these categories, a bit like motor sport where everyone can participate on their own budget.
We would then see the amount of benchers from around the world triple as they could bench within their own budget and be recognised for the achievements in their own category.
This is just my opinion and would welcome feedback on my comments.
Semi off-topic... HWB needs better funding. I dont think its anyones fault that the staff have become so overworked but overclocking and benching is increasing in exposure and activity at an exponential rate- we are victims of our own desire to push the hobby...sport and while people mostly complained about Futuremark charging for Vantage (including me!,) I CAN see that we cannot expect everything to be 1000% accurate, quick, actioned etc if people are doing the hard work in their spare time...for nothing other than satisfaction.
I would rather MUCH rather see HWB stay "in control" of global benchmark submissions than a company take over because they were backed and funded by hardware manufacturers and the skewed loyalties that come with it. I believe this should be by enthusiasts for enthusiasts in as many ways possible.
As for Baz' point.... I know a year ago I was 100% in agreement, mainly through a money dependence and i would still like to see more emphasis placed on skill not money but I can see that they are technically single GPUs.
The emphasis would still be on money. If not for hardware directly- LN2 and cascades to get the clocks. overall.
Im a big believer in bench efficiency and the reality of increasing a CPU speed by 25% to get a 5-10% score increase in benches is something im not a fan of but its what I "have" to do to get the rankings. Its satisfying to get so close to higher scores with so much less on the GPU or CPU...wherever the bottleneck isnt, but whos gonna notice if im in a lower ranking? No-one checks to see whos lower down the leaderboards ;)
We cant escape the money dependence in this hobby, especially for global. Global points are EXPENSIVE. Hardware categories arent much better. Even if the category hardware is pretty cheap, the rest of the system still has to be up there to get the scores. Still got plenty of categories with £40 GPUs with £150 or £600 CPUs on £250 mobos cooled by cascade or LN2. Granted, i've done nothing to work against that (with dry ice) so for the small difference I might or have not made...I apologise.
Im worried this is "how it has to be"
If not more, John.
The current hardware database is not build based on # of gpu's, it's build based on card type. This means that RB would have to restructure the hardware database, which has its influence on the hwboints algorythm, the rankings, graphs and so much more.
An idea strikes.... could the hardware master and/or hardware junkie leaderboards be pushed harder from the HWB side? Those are a free-for-all with a bit less dependence on money.
Downside I can see is...the harder they are pushed, the bigger the fish who will swim there and the guys with least money will be pushed out again.
Rank by cooling type? Make it mandatory to have temperature software open so we can spot whos using A/C, chillers etc
Im heading WAY off-topic now...
Temperature software can be cheated with: just change the offset value and you're done :-/
:( Damn. I wish more of this was fool+cheat proof
knopflerbruce
02-19-2009, 23:40
Perhaps we need to split dual cores form quads, too. A decent quad cost a fortune these days. Perhaps we need to split by sockets as well, 1366 is far too expensive for normal people...
:rolleyes:
Id really like to see multi CPU split from single ;) IE...2P,4P, 8P and even the 3P if AMD ever sent them to production...
Im not sure if that kind of comparison is a good one though knopfler..... how long until some of the CPU benches can be processed on GPU? Would people want SPi, wP ranked globally or split into CPU and GPU-based?
back on topic
14 month ago i could bench a single GPU card and be ranked in the top ten
today if i bench a single gpu 280gtx in vantage the highest position i can achieve is 119th which is (second for the card so a good score) and receive 6 points
all the cards in front of me are hybrids
3DMark Vantage - Performance - 16389 marks - bazx (Bench Tec UK) 18.1 points - [ inspect ]
Processor: Core i7 Extreme 965 @ 4788mhz on LN2 [ view screenshot ]
Videocard: GeForce GTX 280 @ 900/1100mhz [#2 GeForce GTX 280 in 3DMark Vantage - Performance] on LN2
Motherboard: X58
Global Rank: 119th - 6.2 points
Hardware Rank: 2nd GeForce GTX 280 - 11.9 points
Description: no description
Verfication: verification link screenshot
Scan date: 31-12-2008 09:38
benching hybrids is not only more expensive around 30% more for the card but 250$ for another pot as you either need 2x pots with ATI or with nvidia a new pot that fits the new configuration every time they bring out a new hybrid card
and 2x the ln2
benching a 280gtx or 4870 single (GPU) is by far the cheapest and easiest way to take part in global rankings
it may well be very difficult to setup a new group for hybrids or single GPU
but i see no other way these cards may share a single slot but they do not share the same performance by a long way
how can i compete when the closest i can get it 119th to the top ten
knopflerbruce
02-20-2009, 15:12
back on topic
14 month ago i could bench a single GPU card and be ranked in the top ten
today if i bench a single gpu 280gtx in vantage the highest position i can achieve is 119th which is (second for the card so a good score) and receive 6 points
all the cards in front of me are hybrids
benching hybrids is not only more expensive around 30% more for the card but 250$ for another pot as you either need 2x pots with ATI or with nvidia a new pot that fits the new configuration every time they bring out a new hybrid card
and 2x the ln2
benching a 280gtx or 4870 single (GPU) is by far the cheapest and easiest way to take part in global rankings
it may well be very difficult to setup a new group for hybrids or single GPU
but i see no other way these cards may share a single slot but they do not share the same performance by a long way
how can i compete when the closest i can get it 119th to the top ten
You should ask yourself what you paid for those cards, not whether they are hybrids or not.
dude if you have nothing to say connected with the topic
then keep it to your self
knopflerbruce
02-20-2009, 20:10
dude if you have nothing to say connected with the topic
then keep it to your self
You use COST as an argument to split up the rankings, and I'm sure you see the relevance - you just don't want to admit that the GPU cost today is actually less than it used to be only 2-3 years ago.
You use COST as an argument to split up the rankings, and I'm sure you see the relevance - you just don't want to admit that the GPU cost today is actually less than it used to be only 2-3 years ago.
I think what Bazx is trying to say is every year we have new single GPU cards and duel GPu cards hit the market ready for us all to buy, the problem is that the sales of single core GPU’s are not worth benching due to the points allocation that they are being rewarded with, who in the right mind would spend hard earned cash on something that cannot compete with the duel GPU cards.
The same amount of work still has to go into benching both types of cards, LN2 pots granted you would need two for the Multy GPU cards so extra expense there but the same amount of work would still be involved in running all the benches just to receive a few hardware points unlike the Duel GPU cards that run so much faster than the single core GPU cards.
I think this is a bad move personally as it will reduce the amount of single GPU cards within our market; also it reduces the amount of honest benchers out there that would be able to compete on an even playing filed not run by who has the biggest pockets.
I still think we need to show the world what are the fastest platforms but I also think we should show the world what can be done with middle of the range hardware as well.
why is it you are so resistant to a single GPU 3D class jmke?
you would need to be blind not to see there is a place for such a ranking @ hwbot
is there some other reason why you would not want a single GPU ranking
is hwbot payed to suppress such a ranking by the manufacturers
i ask as i am at a loss to understand your position
knopflerbruce
02-21-2009, 01:03
why is it you are so resistant to a single GPU 3D class jmke?
you would need to be blind not to see there is a place for such a ranking @ hwbot
is there some other reason why you would not want a single GPU ranking
is hwbot payed to suppress such a ranking by the manufacturers
i ask as i am at a loss to understand your position
It wouldn't be a disaster if they actually made such a ranking, but then you may want to split the number of cores on CPUs as well. Not to mention the good, old AMD/Intel separate rank debate.
I also thought most people benched because it's fun to match their scores against similar setups, not to have the fastest scores on the planet:confused: Perhaps I'm just different, I'm happy when I get 2.4 points for a good score with some cheap and relatively outdated HW. Those who want to have 100+ points for their efforts to find it interesting to bench have an attitude problem.
is hwbot payed to suppress such a ranking by the manufacturers
I was going to write a lenghty sarcastic remarks on this 'argument', but decided not to although this argument pisses me off big time. We spend hours and hours of our free time on this site and in the end people still we're getting paid for certain decisions ... that's just sad.
No, hwbot is not paid by manufacturer.
There might be a solution for the single gpu benchers, but that one would be without points. I'll run it by the rest of the crew first :-)
An idea strikes.... could the hardware master and/or hardware junkie leaderboards be pushed harder from the HWB side? Those are a free-for-all with a bit less dependence on money.
Must've missed this: yeah, it's possible I reckon :-).
I was going to write a lenghty sarcastic remarks on this 'argument', but decided not to although this argument pisses me off big time. We spend hours and hours of our free time on this site and in the end people still we're getting paid for certain decisions ... that's just sad.
No, hwbot is not paid by manufacturer.
There might be a solution for the single gpu benchers, but that one would be without points. I'll run it by the rest of the crew first :-)
what would be the point of a single gpu ranking system without points?
when 3x sli came in you managed to put up a ranking in a month
if hwbot needs funding to pay coders to do the work for a single gpu ranking system i am 100% sure i could raise the money required
this would remove the burden on RB to do it as he has limited time
that must be it then. not any of the other 1001 reasons already mentioned in the thread. reread SF3D reply. the decision was made, and since you like repetition....
sf3d can not be relied upon to make such statements or decisions as he is way to involved with sponsors and the existing ranking system
what would be the point of a single gpu ranking system without points?
Competition?
when 3x sli came in you managed to put up a ranking in a month
There's no such thing as a 3x SLI ranking.
if hwbot needs funding to pay coders to do the work for a single gpu ranking system i am 100% sure i could raise the money required
That doesn't make any sense. First you say that we don't switch to single gpu rankings because we are getting paid not to do so and now you say you'd find money to switch to a single gpu ranking. What would be the difference then? People would say "you don't swith to single slot rankings because you're paid" ... and they would be correct.
Money doesn't change everything. I believe the crew would still agree on single-slot solutions even if we had a million dollar available.
this would remove the burden on RB to do it as he has limited time
Not the way I was going to do the suggestion.
1. why should the single GPU bench er not receive points for there work?
2. i made an error with the 3xsli as it was listed in the search options
http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/hw.png
3. That doesn't make any sense. First you say that we don't switch to single gpu rankings because we are getting paid not to do so and now you say you'd find money to switch to a single gpu ranking. What would be the difference then? People would say "you don't swith to single slot rankings because you're paid" ... and they would be correct.
you are wrong.... i did not say you were being payed .... i asked if you were
Money doesn't change everything. I believe the crew would still agree on single-slot solutions even if we had a million dollar available.
this only backs up my opinion that it is time for some changes in the moderators here as it would seem you have become tired of the task of running such a data base
and could do with some new blood to inject some energy
4. if RB is the only coder here he clearly could do with some support and getting other coders to help him might be of some use either payed help or voluntary donated help
1. why should the single GPU bench er not receive points for there work?
They do, in their category and in the global rankings. Single gpu's just don't reach extreme heights in certain benchmarks.
I'm trying to offer a solution that doesn't require months of coding.
this only backs up my opinion that it is time for some changes in the moderators here as it would seem you have become tired of the task of running such a data base and could do with some new blood to inject some energy
So, the current crew is incapable since we don't change our minds about the single-gpu ranking? We all understand your point and all know the pro's and cons, but currently the cons outweigh the pro's, thus we stand by our conclusion. It's not just a matter of "I feel it's wrong", it's a matter of being consistent at hwbot, it's a matter of time restrictions, priorities in bugs and features and so on. If we'd split up single gpu and multi-gpu, we MUST split up single core and multi-core cpu's.
I am under the impression that you think that we're not switching because of personal reasons on not because we've outweighed the different arguments. Am I wrong?
4. if RB is the only coder here he clearly could do with some support and getting other coders to help him might be of some use either payed help or voluntary donated help
Payed - Not possible
Voluntary - Possible, although it would take a few days to explain how hwbot works in real life, and a few weeks to explain in english over the internet.
I am under the impression that you think that we're not switching because of personal reasons on not because we've outweighed the different arguments. Am I wrong?
yes you are wrong...
weather you like it or not Hwbot has become the overclockers data base for world rankings
you can no longer run it as if it was just a pet project in your back room
it needs professional help to get all the required rankings in place
the only reason you can put forward for why hwbot cannot be updated is that it would take to much work or we don't have the time
if this is the case then maybe you should consider why you remain here if you can no long deal with the work load
there are many here that would like the chance to serve the community and would have the time and energy required to complete the task
They do, in their category and in the global rankings. Single gpu's just don't reach extreme heights in certain benchmarks.
this is the point of the hole discussion
single GPU cards cannot beat Hybrid card hec 2x single gpu cards cannot beat a hybrid and so should not be in the same group
Voluntary - Possible, although it would take a few days to explain how hwbot works in real life, and a few weeks to explain in english over the internet.
this is at least a step in the right direction
knopflerbruce
02-21-2009, 17:00
yes you are wrong...
weather you like it or not Hwbot has become the overclockers data base for world rankings
you can no longer run it as if it was just a pet project in your back room
it needs professional help to get all the required rankings in place
the only reason you can put forward for why hwbot cannot be updated is that it would take to much work or we don't have the time
if this is the case then maybe you should consider why you remain here if you can no long deal with the work load
there are many here that would like the chance to serve the community and would have the time and energy required to complete the task
HWBot needs more mods, perhaps. Maybe more coders, too. But no so-called "professionals" can deal with the ranks any better than what the mods do now. The help should come from the community. I can't belive for one second that any non-bencher can give any valid argumetns on how to run this site - you can hire people for $100000000 and their opinion is still worth like 10% of Massman's;)
A solution to the capacity problems here is certainly NOT to ask the existing mods to withdraw. Easy math. And SF3D's opinion is 100% valid, he's one of the more sensible members here. Sponsorship is irrelevant in this case, there are no signs that he's serving his company instead of HWBot when he does his job here.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.