Team CP sharing 7950GT in April Challenge

[AmericanNightmare]

http://hwbot.org/competition/hoc_apr11?tab=stage%205

If you look at the submissions by CP you'll see the progression of the cards travel.

[Hondacity]

i'd like to see photo of the card's stickers...

[AmericanNightmare]

I doubt they'll provide it. I was personally informed by one of their members the card pased from Paco bc/ he couldn't take the top to StoneAge no go still and on to Mr.Scott. A lot of these guys I consider friends but cheating is cheating period.

[Hondacity]

indeed. gpu looks really identical. wish it had a software id so we can discriminate which is which.

could a cheat like this have been avoided?

maybe make a rule for this sort of competition that the hardware of team mates must be completely different?

[AmericanNightmare]

indeed. gpu looks really identical. wish it had a software id so we can discriminate which is which.

could a cheat like this have been avoided?

maybe make a rule for this sort of competition that the hardware of team mates must be completely different?

B/c it's the same damn card.

[knopflerbruce]

Im not sure how the rules apply in this case, as there is a huge difference between this competition and regular rankings: here only the best score counts, so the others who ran it gained NOTHING for their team, or themselves (only two members ran this model and submitted the scores for boints).

[AmericanNightmare]

But sharing is sharing and if you it slide now it will encourage this behavior in the future.

[Antinomy]

Im not sure how the rules apply in this case, as there is a huge difference between this competition and regular rankings: here only the best score counts, so the others who ran it gained NOTHING for their team, or themselves (only two members ran this model and submitted the scores for boints).
Agree - the competition doesn't give you any improvement in boints and the sharing rule was exactly about that. And this situation came up only because a GPU benchmark is ranked by CPU.

It's like we've made a PCMark05 run with different videocards as stages but without dividing by CPU.

So it's up to the crew to think about such a case.

[AmericanNightmare]

Agree - the competition doesn't give you any improvement in boints and the sharing rule was exactly about that. And this situation came up only because a GPU benchmark is ranked by CPU.

It's like we've made a PCMark05 run with different videocards as stages but without dividing by CPU.

So it's up to the crew to think about such a case.

Again allowing it only encourages further such behavior.

[mr.paco]

I doubt they'll provide it. I was personally informed by one of their members the card pased from Paco bc/ he couldn't take the top to StoneAge no go still and on to Mr.Scott. A lot of these guys I consider friends but cheating is cheating period.
If and when you quote someone make sure you quote it EXACTLY as it was said...
I NEVER told you I lent StoneAge my card. He's not even competeing.

[AmericanNightmare]

If and when you quote someone make sure you quote it EXACTLY as it was said...
I NEVER told you I lent StoneAge my card. He's not even competeing.

Okay then who did you tell me you lent the card too Paco? I know you loaned it to Scotty.

[El Gappo]

hwbot cater to hardware sharers and cheaters, they've even developed a new revision just for them. How have you not noticed this with your background in pcmark05 cheating? :)

[Mr.Scott]

It's true, the 7950 I'm using in the april comp is Frank's (MrPaco), all the other equipment is my own. As I understand, the team type monthly challanges encourage team members to use the best of what they have as a team to enter. It's not the same as benching for personal points, and I have not benched this card for anything but this monthly contest, and will not. I know what the rules are.

@ AN (Opty) - You just couldn't stand the fact you couldn't get by me could you? So you try to pull a bitch stunt like this? You should be ashamed of yourself. I thought you were bigger than this.

[mr.paco]

Hardware sharing would be me sending MY mobo & my cpu & my ram & my psu & my gpu after I benched it to some one else so they could bench it and get double the points. And that was not done.

[Mr.Scott]

Haters gotta hate. Now I know how OCA feels. :(

[Barton]

Opty, aka "ANM", to the best of my knowledge no one on our team has used the same piece of hardware on the same benchmark as any other team member. There is more than one nvidia video card in the world and more than one ATI card, too for that matter.

This problem you are having is beneath you. AFAIK, even if what you say were true, it is no violation of the rules for this competition.

This is a "Team Competition", not an individual competition. Only the best score is counted for each team. Please let the imagined non-fraction go. We'll all (and that includes you, my friend) be happier as a result.

[Hondacity]

Opty, aka "ANM", to the best of my knowledge no one on our team has used the same piece of hardware on the same benchmark as any other team member. There is more than one nvidia video card in the world and more than one ATI card, too for that matter.

This problem you are having is beneath you. AFAIK, even if what you say were true, it is no violation of the rules for this competition.

This is a "Team Competition", not an individual competition. Only the best score is counted for each team. Please let the imagined non-fraction go. We'll all (and that includes you, my friend) be happier as a result.

as long as rules are followed, this issue is solved then.

[mr.paco]

as long as rules are followed, this issue is solved then.
Thank You

[Bobnova]

You're a bit late Barton, Mr. Scott already laid out that he's using Mr.Paco's card.

Isn't this a clear cut case?
Sharing hardware for points is illegal, plain and simple.
If you're both/all submitting 3d benches with the same 3d card in the same bench and getting HW points out of it, that's breaking the rules for HW sharing.
If you're only submitting for the contest and not getting any points it's a gray area. Given the wording of the rules it's illegal, as the rules talk about "submissions" rather then "submissions for points". I personally have no issue with this though, it's a team contest after all!

Honestly though I doubt anybody will do anything regardless, enforcing rules doesn't seem to be HWBot's style lately.

[Mr.Scott]

If any points are involved, I have no problem submitting for no points, as it was not my intention for benching this. My intention was for my team to win the April Challange, that's all. I could care less about the points structure here. Being mostly grinders, we get screwed anyways. The last revision cost us 1400 or so team points, this revision change will un-doubtedly cost us again.

[AmericanNightmare]

It's true, the 7950 I'm using in the april comp is Frank's (MrPaco), all the other equipment is my own. As I understand, the team type monthly challanges encourage team members to use the best of what they have as a team to enter. It's not the same as benching for personal points, and I have not benched this card for anything but this monthly contest, and will not.
@ AN (Opty) - You just couldn't stand the fact you couldn't get by me could you? So you try to pull a bitch stunt like this? You should be ashamed of yourself. I thought you were bigger than this.

Who resorted too name calling Scotty? And who says I already didn't pass you. I'm better than @ socket A on my worst you know it and so do I. Hell the only reason your doing so well is I sold one of my NFII's for a song. The only time I personally referenced you was as a friend so shame on you sir.

This wasn't hating it was clarification now that it's clarified so be it.

[Mr.Scott]

You drew the line in the sand, and then proceded to step over it. I'm done with this. Let the axe fall where it may. It's up to the staff to decide now.

[knopflerbruce]

I'm not going to make this decision alone, as this case isn't that clear. Strictly speaking, it's not allowed to pass the card around like that (- VGA may not be shared for 3D Benchmarks). However, in this competition sharing doesnt give much of an advantage as only the best score pr team counts, so basically all other submissions are worthless. The only way you can gain something here is to get that one score that matches the VGA to the best CPU and perhaps the bencher who can get the most efficient run - which IMO is not against the spirit of this month's competition at all, it's about team effort and not personal gain.

If any punishment is to be given, I'd say a warning + removal of all except one of the 7950GT AGP submission is enough. It's pretty clear that this was done in good faith. Maybe we need to add a paragraph about this type of sharing later, to avoid more problems like this.

Now, stop fighting and shake hands - both of you have valid arguments, the error here is on our side.:)

I hope this made sense, it's almost 3 AM and I've had a damn headache all day...:p Gnite!

[Kal-EL]

Maybe we should start awarding "I fling poo t-shirts"?

[AmericanNightmare]

Maybe we should start awarding "I fling poo t-shirts"? I'll take one.

[Kal-EL]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNIcL-KNdNK6NddGuv5_pHmaiCco9mfFtBC6C1TjjrqOESZizY

[AmericanNightmare]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNIcL-KNdNK6NddGuv5_pHmaiCco9mfFtBC6C1TjjrqOESZizY

Perfect!


Scotty this is not personal it's a competition. I have been nothing but civil. Lord knows you had to sit by for months and watch me smash enough of your socket A scores. I'd be testy too.

BTW that's a joke Scotty before you start yammering about lines in the sand.

Knopf I don't know about good faith. It was done b/c Scotty is the only one who stood a chance.

[Freakezoit]

Oky it is sharing , and you can say what you whant :

http://hwbot.org/rankings/benchmark/3dmark2001_se/rankings?start=0&cores=1&hardwareTypeId=GPU_1522

Mr.Scott is ranked 4 of 6 with one 7950GT AGP and gets 0.8 hwboints

MrPaco is ranked 2 of 6 with one 7950GT AGP and gets 1.5 hwboints

Ranking 3DM01, all other benches like 3DM03 , 3DM05 , 3DM06 and AM3 have only one entry with that card and that is MrPaco.

If Mr.Scott gets no points it would be Oky , but he gets points with an card which is
1. not his card
2. was used by another member (MrPaco)
3. Both getting points with the Same card in 3DM01 regardless of the Competition.

That is against the Rules , and there is no point of saying that is oky it is not.
Remove that score , because that is Hwsharing regardless of this Competition because Exactly the Same card was used to get 2 scores for 2 Teammebers and both are getting points.

[mr.paco]

I understand what you are saying, I am in no way disputing that about the personal points issue.but If you would re-read posts #13 and especially post #20.
Yes I benched that card for the various 3D Benchmarks not MrScott.

I would also call upon the Bot Staff for just abit of clarity.
When benching for PERSONAL POINTS, said member is to bench n submit what they own, that i perfectly clear...
For a TEAM COMPETITION; the members of said TEAM TOGETHER bench their COMMON hardware and the best gets credit.
Now my question is: How can it be a TEAM COMPETITION if the TEAM members can not pool their resources together for the TEAM competition?
If one member has a good motherboard, another has a good cpu, another has a good gpu and together it is benched and submitted as a TEAM ONLY for TEAM COMPETITIONS why wouldn't that qualify for TEAM COMPETITION. As it is now the way everyone seems to understand this TEAM COMPETITION is really a EACH MEMBER COMPETITION.

If I am wrong, Than my apologies to all who were affected by this missunderstanding, I surely did not in any way mean to break the rules and especialy be called a cheater...

[Freakezoit]

No you don`t understand it both of you getting these points 0.8 and 1.5 and the competition has nothing to do with that because 2 team members are getting points for the Same card in the Same Category (3DM01 , look @ my link maybe you understant it)

When the competition is over you 2 had these points for ya Team .
You both forget Something , if you upload an Score for an competition you get points for the Competition , and for the Bench it self (if you whant that, there was an button as ou uploaded the Score , where is written that :

[ ]Do NOT participate in hwbot rankings.

and both of you did not marked it .

So both of you get the points even when there will be no Competition.

MrPaco is ranked 2 of 6 with one 7950GT AGP and gets 1.5 hwboints

Mr.Scott is ranked 4 of 6 with one 7950GT AGP and gets 0.8 hwboints

Both entry`s are done with one card and when you Upload your scores you acceptet the Rules for 3DM01 regardless of the Competition

they Say :

4. Lending hardware, hardware sharing, score sharing/selling/buying

This in a delicate subject as we have to trust on the honesty of those participating at the HWbot that they are indeed using their own hardware and not sharing a golden sample CPU or VGA card.
Let’s start with what is allowed to be shared: everything except:

- VGA may not be shared for 3D Benchmarks
- CPU may not be shared for 2D Benchmarks
- special cases, like what to do with joint bench sessions and manufacturer hardware is explained here.

http://www.hwbot.org/blog/wp-content/3952208.jpg

While the rules are quite simple and straightforward, enforcing them isn’t. If you are having a joint benchmark session, provide as much proof and information as possible when you submit a new HWBot score, which shows you were using your own hardware for the benchmark in question, a photo with a paper showing your nickname and the product serial number is good way to do this.

And for you it is - VGA may not be shared for 3D Benchmarks

Which you did , because both of you getting Hwpoints for ya team. Like i described it before.

And i didn`t call you an cheater , id say you both did Something wrong , it is not my point to give you an Warning or something. I only described what you both did Wrong and what isn`t oky.

[mr.paco]

Yes I see that about us both getting points. So if one us deletes our 7950 3D01submission from the rankings is that what you mean?
I really would like to get this ended the right way.

[Freakezoit]

Yep ,
And i don`t want that you get an ban for an mistake , but what you get or what you both have to do is not my descition , normaly the Mod`s have to say what has to be done .

[mr.paco]

I wast saying YOU called me a cheat. I just keep seeing it said in other posts.

[mr.paco]

Yep ,
And i don`t want that you get an ban for an mistake , but what you get or what you both have to do is not my descition , normaly the Mod`s have to say what has to be done .
Thank you. I really dont want to get banned for this. Hopefully with one of us deleting our 7950 3D01 run this will be ended.
Again Thank You

EDIT: I have just deleted MY 7950gt 3D01 run. Please let this this be the end of it...

[Mr.Scott]

Frank, just sit tight and don't do anything. He has no power here. Wait for an answer from the staff.

BTW, I've already said, I didn't do it for points. I could care less about them, and have already offered to re-submit for no points. I did it for the TEAM competition, that's all. I know the rules, so all those who aren't staff here, trying to explain and enforce said rules can shut your traps. You're not telling me anything I don't already know.

[Freakezoit]

And you should not delete your entry`s because it`s your card.
Mr. Scott should delete his 3 entry`s because it isn`t his card he used.
If only one is deletet of 3 entry`s he will get points for his lower score of the other entry`s.

And Mr.Scott it is right that i can`t decide what to do , i send Pieter and Karl an PM about that.
You say you know what i meant oky that says alot about that.
Do what you want the Staff will decide.
You should know what happend to the last guy and his team , who did something like that.

I only wanted to help in an good way but....

[Mr.Scott]

I only wanted to help in an good way but....
Of course you were, especially when removing my scores would put your team in first place.;)

[Freakezoit]

Oky you think that i did that to get my team into first place , you forget that these things are something different.

And what i sayed is my personal meaning , i`m not @ hwbot since yesterday. So i know alot about such things .

I stop here discussing that. You will see what you get.

[Mr.Scott]

I was just saying how convenient it was, that's all.

[AmericanNightmare]

It's not like you all got together and benched the card Scotty. It was deliberately mailed to you free for a express purpose. That constitutes hardware sharing under the rules including competition as has already been outlined. It's illegal. You know it, I know it, and the staff knows it.

[El Gappo]

Of course you were, especially when removing my scores would put your team in first place.;)

If it weren't for you cheating he would be in first place ;)

This is all just a little bit silly.

[Kal-EL]

This looks more like a matter of following two different sets of rules/parameters.
A) The team challenge calls for using the team's resources to pair the best overclocker with the best hardware
While
B) The standard boint system prohibits the sharing of hardware.

They are contradictory.

Looking for intent to cheat, I'd look for Scotty to have submitted several other benchmarks using the shared hardware. As far as I know, he has only submitted results thru the team challenge competition engine.

Most of the remarks here are severly inflamatory and painfully obvious they are intended to provide a dramatic response.

As far as the team challenge goes, scotty operated within the parameters and simply obtained a better overclock within the parameters of the contest.

I'd hardly regard scott as a cheater given the facts and circumstances presented here.

Emotions run high in any competitive activity where people feel their honor and reputation are at stake. Still, we should try to maintain some level of maturity and level headed interactions. Its so easy to be a dumbass on the internet with a few self serving immediate gratification keystrokes rather than showing some class and discernment when wielding a keyboard.

How bout we leave the cavemen in the cave for a bit and pretend we have evolved as human beings that can actually interact with one another without resorting to kiddish psychological babble?

[AmericanNightmare]

Not surprising comment considering your thick as thieves with CP. On your note however I have been nothing but civil.

[Kal-EL]

Not surprising comment considering your thick as thieves with CP. On your note however I have been nothing but civil.

I'm not thick as thieves with anyone cuz I don't steal from anyone and I don't hold friends that do steal. I do have friends on CP and I consider Mr.Scott to be one of them but friendship doesnt compromise my integrity or my perspective. It is what it is.

[Massman]

Thanks for all the input.

First things first, the solution:

- Mr.paco removed his submission from the competition (which he already did himself)
- Scott's result has been set to 'disabled for rankings'

I don't see the necessity to ban either users. They didn't try to cheat on purpose, nor did they hide the fact that it was the same card and pro-actively deleted one of the submissions.

Now, about hardware sharing.

The hardware sharing rules were not specifically designed to stop team members from pushing a hardware sample to the maximum, but to prevent teams from exploiting the local post office as main source of team points. In general, if there is no benefit from sharing hardware, there's no problem. In practice, this means as long as you check the 'disable for rankings' box you can use shared hardware. That little checkbox is basically an easy way out of any hardware sharing debate :).

As for sharing hardware for competitions: we have to acknowledge that there is no clear ruling about this. That two people have a different interpretation is therefore not impossible. Using your fellow team member's gear during a competition (with 'disabling points') doesn't even seem wrong; especially for a team competition this would kind of fit in the competition spirit. Using the same hardware within the same stage would be hardware sharing (as you are hindering other teams), using same hardware in different stages is ... something in between not sharing and the previous kind of sharing. Undocumented.

[AmericanNightmare]

Massman:"Using the same hardware within the same stage would be hardware sharing"

That's what they did and admitted they did it. I mean can it be more clear?

[Mr.Scott]

Thanks for all the input.

First things first, the solution:

- Mr.paco removed his submission from the competition (which he already did himself)
- Scott's result has been set to 'disabled for rankings'

I don't see the necessity to ban either users. They didn't try to cheat on purpose, nor did they hide the fact that it was the same card and pro-actively deleted one of the submissions.

Now, about hardware sharing.

The hardware sharing rules were not specifically designed to stop team members from pushing a hardware sample to the maximum, but to prevent teams from exploiting the local post office as main source of team points. In general, if there is no benefit from sharing hardware, there's no problem. In practice, this means as long as you check the 'disable for rankings' box you can use shared hardware. That little checkbox is basically an easy way out of any hardware sharing debate :).

As for sharing hardware for competitions: we have to acknowledge that there is no clear ruling about this. That two people have a different interpretation is therefore not impossible. Using your fellow team member's gear during a competition (with 'disabling points') doesn't even seem wrong; especially for a team competition this would kind of fit in the competition spirit. Using the same hardware within the same stage would be hardware sharing (as you are hindering other teams), using same hardware in different stages is ... something in between not sharing and the previous kind of sharing. Undocumented.

Thank you Massman and the rest of the staff.:)

[mr.paco]

Thank You all very much @ Bott...

[Massman]

Massman:"Using the same hardware within the same stage would be hardware sharing"

That's what they did and admitted they did it. I mean can it be more clear?

Yes, it is clear. The solution was to remove one of the two scores and disable points for the score of Mr.Scott.

[AmericanNightmare]

Wow you penalized them a whole .1 point. I'm sure that stung. It matters not anyway b/c after rev.4 Team CP will be a non-entity.


Opty out.

[Massman]

Actually, it was more meant as a 'solution' than a 'penalty'.

[Splave]

Haters gotta hate. Now I know how OCA feels. :(

jeesh, HW witch hunt ftl

[Mr.Scott]

Wow you penalized them a whole .1 point. I'm sure that stung. It matters not anyway b/c after rev.4 Team CP will be a non-entity.


Opty out.
Stop your cryin'. You're getting tears all over your skirt dude.

[AmericanNightmare]

Stop your cryin'. You're getting tears all over your skirt dude.

You got off easy and you know it. You made it personal Scotty. TO show you just how much better I am than you I will give you my next CPU MP 2000 Pally. Consider 1 chip down many more to go boss. Oh! wait and when rev. 4 hits CP will be so ass out you'll bleed for months. The goood news is since I'm the only one who benches "classic" hardware for my team it counts as the top. That sounds nice.

So off I go too overclock in my skirt Scotty. After all it's a warm night.

[Barton]

Time to lock this one.

[AmericanNightmare]

Agreed.

Time to lock this one.Hi buddy I noticed you never jumped on the crucify Opty bandwagon @ CP.

Never got to thank you so thanks.