The Poll: Allow E.S. or disallow ?

[BenchZowner]

Just a flashback.
It's May 2011 now, and we have yet to see a retail 980X/990X surpass the E.S. @ SuperPi, 3D Mark03/05/Vantage.

[knopflerbruce]

There are retails that are in the same league as the golden A0's (check the 980x and 990x rankings if you don't believe me).

Rev. 4 will change the ES game a bit as well, in case you didn't know.

[BenchZowner]

980X - SuperPi 32M ranking:
Places 1 ( 6851MHz ) to 9 = ES
Place 10 ( 6480MHz ) = Retail

980X - SuperPi 1M Ranking:
Places 1 ( 6930MHz ) to 6 = ES
Place 7 ( 6589MHz ) = Retail

990X - CPU-z Ranking:
Place 1 ( 7092MHz ) = ES
Place 3 ( 6836MHz ) = Retail

990X - PiFast Ranking:
Place 1 ( 6946MHz ) = ES
Place 5 ( 6707MHz ) = Retail

990X - wPrime 32m Ranking:
Place 1 ( 6654MHz ) = ES
Place 7 ( 5871MHz ) = Retail

990X - wPrime 1024m Ranking:
Place 1 ( 6585MHz ) = ES
Place 7 ( 5742MHz ) = Retail

Close call ?

[Massman]

*yawn*

Sandy Bridge.

[K404]

Who cares about SB?

The ES Vs retail debate will keep going with every architecture.... EVERY time ES is better than retail.... until a decision is made.

Binned ES is the pinnacle of suckleware.... it should be left for the Pro league at best.

[Massman]

The debate is not 'ES' it's 'binning'.

[richba5tard]

I thought ES was only allowed in the pro oc league in rev4, or am I mistaken?

[knopflerbruce]

Here's the complete list for 980x (top 10) and 990x (top 5):

980x:

wp32m: 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10: retail, 7: A0 ES
wp1024m: 1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9,10: retail, 4: A0 ES
spi32m: 10: retail, 1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9:A0 ES 2: N/A (thumbnail)
spi1m: 6,8: retail, 1,4,5,7,9: A0 ES, 2,3,10 N/A (thumbnail)
pifast: 3,4,6,8,9,10: retail, 1,7: A0 ES, 2,5: N/A (thumbnail)
cpuz: 1,2,3,5,6,7,9,10: retail, 4,8: A0 ES

ES vs retail: 35-19

990x:

wp32m: 2,3,4,5,: B1 ES, 1: N/A (thumbnail)
wp1024m: 1: retail, 2,3,4,5: B1 ES
spi32m: 3,4: retail, 1,2,5: B1 ES
spi1m: 2: retail, 1,3,4,5: B1 ES
pifast: 5: retail, 2,3,4,5: B1 ES
cpuz: 3: retail, 1,2,4,5: B1 ES

Looks like even steven to me, but wprime seems better on retail chips, and superpi better on A0 ES. Very few people have benched 990x retails, not even 20 pifast results in the database - ES included, so it's just the 980x story all over again - when enough chips have been tested, retails will be alot more visible in the rankings.

[BenchZowner]

I think it's more than safe to say that:

In this ~2 year period, people have tested MUCH MORE 980X Retails than A0 ES.
Do we really need to see it in numbers like... retails tested ( count the hundreds of RMAs... ? ) 10.000 pieces... ES... 1.000 pieces ?

[El Gappo]

Completely abolishing es's would put a big ass dent in hardware sharing too.
What's going to happen with the FX es's? Can't usually tell none retail amd chips from cpu-z.

[knopflerbruce]

Completely abolishing es's would put a big ass dent in hardware sharing too.
What's going to happen with the FX es's? Can't usually tell none retail amd chips from cpu-z.

You can, it says "AMD Engineering sample":)

[El Gappo]

Had a few non retail chips, either before they went retail or chips that never went retail and none have been listed as es in cpu-z.

740 would be a good example, or some of the earlier ( and higher )975 results. They always have a different stepping to retail chips i.e CACDC vs AACDC or are they just for reviews and oem, I dunno.

[Massman]

AMD usually has media samples with a different stepping. If the first letter is 'A', it's a media sample ~ AACDC. It shows as retail in CPU-Z. Intel is marking their media samples with (ES) through microcode.

[BenchZowner]

But are they distinguishable clocking-wise ?
If they clock really similarly to the retails ( as in same clocks, not a single advantage over retail ) it shouldn't be a problem at all.

[El Gappo]

You tell me lol, hard to see from the data base as you can't see. 740's clearly outpace 720's by a long way. "Media sample" 975's all hit 7gig which was pretty impressive.

Not worth thinking about as you cant tell anyways. Maybe BD will be different.

[Massman]

There were rumours that the 'A' samples were better than the 'C' samples. Like Gappo said ... hard to tell.

[knopflerbruce]

But are they distinguishable clocking-wise ?
If they clock really similarly to the retails ( as in same clocks, not a single advantage over retail ) it shouldn't be a problem at all.

No difference from my experience. Best chips from each type listed below:

FX53: C
FX55 Clawhammer: C
FX55 San Diego: C
FX57: C
FX60: C
FX62: C
FX64. A (only A's available)

Opteron:

144: C
146: C
148: C
150: C
152: C
154: C
156. A
165. C
170: L
175: C
180: L
185: C
190: L

...and so on. Plus, this "A=ES" theory hasn't been confirmed AFAIK. Early FX60's (retail ones) were ACB2E 0536 chips.

[knopflerbruce]

You tell me lol, hard to see from the data base as you can't see. 740's clearly outpace 720's by a long way. "Media sample" 975's all hit 7gig which was pretty impressive.

Not worth thinking about as you cant tell anyways. Maybe BD will be different.

My 740 is an A sample, and it's a very good one:) But i've got shitty Phenom A chips as well, just to make that clear:p

[Massman]

Related to this ES debate, I would also pose the question: Why is Intel sending ES samples to media?

The famous Dr.Who said a few days before the launch of Sandy Bridge that we shouldn't be looking at the early leaks because they weren't showing the performance of retail silicon. The more I wonder why Intel is not providing the media with retail silicon. And if the silicon of the ES media samples is the same like retail silicon, why would they claim the performance in early leaks are not reflecting retail performance.

Extremely Shady business :p

[BenchZowner]

Intel's not sending ES to all media.
And it also depends on the timeline.

[El Gappo]

No difference from my experience. Best chips from each type listed below:

FX53: C
FX55 Clawhammer: C
FX55 San Diego: C
FX57: C
FX60: C
FX62: C
FX64. A (only A's available)

Opteron:

144: C
146: C
148: C
150: C
152: C
154: C
156. A
165. C
170: L
175: C
180: L
185: C
190: L

...and so on. Plus, this "A=ES" theory hasn't been confirmed AFAIK. Early FX60's (retail ones) were ACB2E 0536 chips.
Yeah, but I bet it would look a lot different if you had unlimited access to "A" chips.
Time will play a factor too, I bet the es chips you've got were made before the chip went retail. Revised retail steppings following later on.
Related to this ES debate, I would also pose the question: Why is Intel sending ES samples to media?

The famous Dr.Who said a few days before the launch of Sandy Bridge that we shouldn't be looking at the early leaks because they weren't showing the performance of retail silicon. The more I wonder why Intel is not providing the media with retail silicon. And if the silicon of the ES media samples is the same like retail silicon, why would they claim the performance in early leaks are not reflecting retail performance.

Extremely Shady business :p

At least they mark them. Someone should write an editorial and oust the buggers :p

[Massman]

At least they mark them. Someone should write an editorial and oust the buggers :p

Yeah. Imagina what would happen if those ES samples were being sold on Ebay!! :o

[Christian Ney]

There is going to be more bidders on ES chips than on my Ney's Edition hardware :eek:

[El Gappo]

:O Like dis?
http://imageshack.us/m/219/1699/92120445.png

Took me all of 5 mins to see what review it came from, looks like a nice chip :p

[knopflerbruce]

Yeah, but I bet it would look a lot different if you had unlimited access to "A" chips.
Time will play a factor too, I bet the es chips you've got were made before the chip went retail. Revised retail steppings following later on.

Well, I wonder why the lucky ones who had access never posted scores that would indicate those chips were better than the C ones?

If chips improve with time, then whatever difference between A and C chips would be irrelevant as an argument to not allow A chips as later batches would perform better anyway.

[Turrican]

There is going to be more bidders on ES chips than on my Ney's Edition hardware :eek:

yeah, for sure. :D

[Sam OCX]

Dunno, but ES are not an issue for Deneb C3 since most (if not all) 7GHz chips are true retails.

[Christian Ney]

What about ratail chips recognized as ''ES'' by CPU-Z even if they are and that this is a know issue like for CPU-Z 1.58 and AMD's FX-8150.
Same Chip, same system, same OS:
cpuz 1.58: shows ES
cpuz 1.58.7: shows retail
cpuz 1.59: shows retail


But unfortunately cpu-z 1.58.7 was on the wrong usb drive, so the validation has been done with 1.58 (that shows ES) and the CPU died, so no validation with cpuz 1.58.7 :(

[Massman]

As I pointed out before disallowing ES (at hwbot and competitions)

... you ... can ... make ... ES ... look ... like ... retail ...

Does everyone understand that the our entire knowledge of the ES sample is based on the "(ES)" indication in the CPU-Z software application? That's the ONLY clue we have when it comes to detecting ES in screenshots ... even FM links don't say ES or not.

Okay, if you understand this, then ...

Do you guys remember that AMD has made HIGH-LEAKAGE ES samples look like retail in CPU-Z?

Okay, if you remember this, then ...

1) We can only detect "ES" with CPU-Z
2) You can make CPU-Z see "non-retail" as "retail"

=> Remove ES = ???

We rely on CPU-Z to detect ES or not. Therefore, if CPU-Z says ES it's ES.

[Christian Ney]

We rely on CPU-Z to detect ES or not. Therefore, if CPU-Z says ES it's ES.

when from a version of CPU-Z to another, CPU-Z change his mind, what to trust then ?

[hokiealumnus]

Wait, so ES chips are not allowed at the bot, period?

Could you link to the rule that says that? I spent quite a bit of time looking around for that before submitting 3960X results and saw nothing of the sort.

[Massman]

It was stated in the Rev4 plans thread, but it seems that it has not yet been added to the rules page (although I recall refering to it specifically).

The rule is that ES can only be used for points if you're in the Pro OC League.

[hokiealumnus]

It was stated in the Rev4 plans thread, but it seems that it has not yet been added to the rules page (although I recall refering to it specifically).

The rule is that ES can only be used for points if you're in the Pro OC League.

Yea, might be a good idea to put that there.

Heh, guess I get my chance to see how (poorly) I stack up against the pros. The request didn't confirm submission, so if you'd be so kind, please move me over. I want to help my team and can't afford to replace ES with retail for no other reason than that, so I can pretty much only submit for points to help my team in the Pro league.

Thanks.

[borandi]

Yeah so I haven't read 29 pages worth of comments. But there's more things maybe not be under consideration here:

a) Just because you have an ES, doesn't mean you have an unlimited supply or can get more. People who work at manufacturers may have more of a supply, rather than reviewers who only get a single ES CPU which is as near retail as you can get. If a reviewer who is also an overclocker got an 3960X for the SNB-E launch, or an SB/FX-8150 for that launch, s/he's going to use that to bench with. And then again some of them never touch this 'sub-zero' or whatever. Straight into Pro-OC league, or case-by-case basis?

b) Your rule states if you ever use an ES you move? So Tapakah's 990X score means he'll be moved? Or is it only current gen ES? Have to be specific here.

c) Overclocking events with AMD/Intel reps. If they provide a bunch of CPUs for team members to have a go (and they all happen to be ES), does all the team have to move to Pro OC?

d) Does this cover more than CPUs - memory, motherboards, GPUs? Again, it's best to be completely explicit in declaring rules.

[K404]

I thought the rules were clear enough?

Latest-gen ES = Pro League.

The 990X is now last-gen, thats why Sam posted the result when he did



There has to be some way of separating the Pros from the self-funding masses and, I suppose, it reduces the appeal of spending a LOT of money buying black market ES without a warranty. IMHO, HWB did about the best job they could have in terms of giving an enforceable rule in regard to ES.

If someone is given any number of latest-gen ES (1 or 100) by a company, they are CLEARLY in a better position than the self-funding majority...... especially if its chip thats capable of getting global scores






The one question I do have is..... if a user is moved to the pro league for using ES, can they move back when the ES becomes last-gen?

[knopflerbruce]

It would be silly if someone used a Celeron D ES and had to move to the pro league because of it. That said, if we want to keep the engineering sample style competition out of the XOC league, then allowing GT's isn't a wise idea, so perhaps counting generations of HW is not that clever.

[dumo]

It all boils down to 3960Xes @ $1045 each.....ES or retail

[hokiealumnus]

Just to be clear, for my part I'm perfectly fine moving to Pro. I benched an ES, want to submit it and that's the price I pay. As long as I can still score points for my team, that's my only concern. I don't mind being what I think will be the next-to-last-place Pro as long as the team doesn't suffer. :D

I thought the rules were clear enough?

Heh, it can only be clear if it's a rule. If you can show me it somewhere in the rules, I'll be happy to help diagnose whether it's clear. :o

[K404]

Just had a quick look and didn't see anything about ES..... BUT.... I am JUST out of bed.

For staff: Were ALL the rules copied over the Rev 4?

[hokiealumnus]

Just had a quick look and didn't see anything about ES..... BUT.... I am JUST out of bed.

For staff: Were ALL the rules copied over the Rev 4?

It was not placed in the rules. I looked high and low for it before submitting ES results and it is nowhere to be found. It's buried somewhere in a thread. Rather than spend who knows how long looking through that thread I'll trust Massman.

It was stated in the Rev4 plans thread, but it seems that it has not yet been added to the rules page (although I recall refering to it specifically).

The rule is that ES can only be used for points if you're in the Pro OC League.

After his post, my question was rhetorical. Sorry if it caused you to waste any of your time actually looking for it.

[Christian Ney]

Edit:

it Was Stated In The Rev4 Plans Thread, But It Seems That It Has Not Yet Been Added To The Rules Page (although I Recall Refering To It Specifically).

The Rule Is That Es (actual/next Gen) Can Only Be Used For Points If You're In The Pro Oc League.

[Morphling]

This discussion is nonsense. Is there here any brilliant mind who can tell me that an ES CPU can't be counted on OCLeague\Enthusiasts league or whatever because it's diferent from a retail CPU? On what? An ES model is absolutly equal to a retail CPU! This just doesn't make sense.

An ES CPU is a "tester" from intel. A model of a future reatail CPU, which is completly equal to the retail models!! The only diference between them is that they can be lessoptimized then the retails!

This is not OC spirit guys :( Instead of not alowing this, let's try to fight for example, cheating on benchmarks, or something that is not related with economy :D

Cheers to all!! :)

André Mesquita

P.S.- I don't have access to ES samples, at least for now, but I wish I could!! :D

[Leeghoofd]

Older ES are allowed for all. New generation ES is only for Pro league benchers... no need to comment again, rules have been set...

And ES is not always equal to retail model... eg some have unlocked multies etc..

[GENiEBEN]

Is there here any brilliant mind who can tell me that an ES CPU can't be counted on OCLeague\Enthusiasts league or whatever because it's diferent from a retail CPU?

Dunno, perhaps some unlocked multi samples or even bugged multi ;)

[knopflerbruce]

And "980X" A0 ES chips were NOT equal to retails (2.4 and 3.06GHz stock speeds vs 3.33 for 980x retail) - for example. Plus, engineering samples often have different revisions from retails, which is also something that separates them from the ones you find in stores.

I think it's fair to do it this way, it separates the sponsored guys from the average overclockers, which is what we want to do anyway. If you have access to a bunch of current generation ES chips, then you belong to the pro league anyway.

One thing i wonder is if you get like an IB ES now, but no such ES when next gen is here (IBE). Could you ask to be moved back to the OC league when the new chips are launched?

[Hondacity]

once you go pro, you should be stuck there lol

[Mafio]

And "980X" A0 ES chips were NOT equal to retails (2.4 and 3.06GHz stock speeds vs 3.33 for 980x retail) - for example. Plus, engineering samples often have different revisions from retails, which is also something that separates them from the ones you find in stores.

I think it's fair to do it this way, it separates the sponsored guys from the average overclockers, which is what we want to do anyway. If you have access to a bunch of current generation ES chips, then you belong to the pro league anyway.

One thing i wonder is if you get like an IB ES now, but no such ES when next gen is here (IBE). Could you ask to be moved back to the OC league when the new chips are launched?

you can buy "current generation ES" on ebay.
so having an ES CPU doesn't make you a sponsored guy.

[knopflerbruce]

That's true, and I know it. Most engineering samples don't end up on ebay, though - that's just a few of many.

I'm pretty sure that most people who used 980x engineering samples before SB was released didn't get them from ebay.

[dinos22]

This discussion is nonsense. Is there here any brilliant mind who can tell me that an ES CPU can't be counted on OCLeague\Enthusiasts league or whatever because it's diferent from a retail CPU? On what? An ES model is absolutly equal to a retail CPU! This just doesn't make sense.

An ES CPU is a "tester" from intel. A model of a future reatail CPU, which is completly equal to the retail models!! The only diference between them is that they can be lessoptimized then the retails!

This is not OC spirit guys :( Instead of not alowing this, let's try to fight for example, cheating on benchmarks, or something that is not related with economy :D

Cheers to all!! :)

André Mesquita

P.S.- I don't have access to ES samples, at least for now, but I wish I could!! :Dvery much the case

[sin0822]

once you go pro, you should be stuck there lol

is it just me or is there a lot less people to get ahead of in pro? Sure they might be harder to beat, but they are fewer in numbers, so at least you'll be in the top 100 lol, even if you are last.

[Leeghoofd]

Good Tip Sin : so to all boost your ego by just going pro...

In my case I go up 200 spots :)