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-   -   Why is Ryzen 8 core against FX CPU's?? (http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=171906)

No1Spank 08-11-2017 11:06

Why is Ryzen 8 core against FX CPU's??
I've noticed in the last 2 rounds of Challenger Division IV that the Ryzen 7 is in with the older AMD FX cpu's.

This basically renders the FX's useless for the competition as they aren't really competitive even against the R3 or R5's. Surely the R7's should be in the same division as the other Ryzens as on the odd occasions they can beat them, or the R7's should be against an equivalent CPU such as those on X99 from Intel.

I just find it annoying as I purchased an FX8320 earlier in the year purley for the Challenger Division IV competitions now it is pointless even bothering to upload a score as anyone without an R7 will be nowhere.

Other than that HwBot is a great league and site...

I still say that OC sports points achieved in Rookie Rumbles & Novice Nimbles should be removed when moving up to the next league though as it throws the tables out.

websmile 08-11-2017 11:15

Re: Why is Ryzen 8 core against FX CPU's??
We cannot give each outdated cpu generation its own challenger division. Core i7 4770k is farly useless against skylake, skylake can´t beat Kabylake, and so on. That´s technical progress, we will have to regroup all divisions anyway after season is over because amd and intel changed name patterns, core counts and so on. On Rookie and novice points for rumbles, eocports point are counting towards the ranking 12 months from date they were won, so this problem solves itself like with all eocsports points. I have no idea why you see any problem with this, it is balanced this way for years now

No1Spank 08-11-2017 13:28

Re: Why is Ryzen 8 core against FX CPU's??
Just found it annoying when I was in enthusiast league and in 3rd or 4th place in the UK when a novice would come up and move me down before dropping back behind me a few months later when their rookie OC sports points were removed.

Then it would happen again, decent points are really hard to come by if you can't afford to constantly buy new hardware on air & water in those early years.

If there were some enthusiast only competitions that might even things up a bit.

I'm not personally that bothered now as I'm looking to go into the extreme league using LN2 soon but just think that overclockers need to be looked after at each level to keep them interested.

I agree that the older i5's and i7's won't beat modern versions but at least a chiller or dry ice will even things up a bit where an FX on LN2 is still going to get white washed by an 8 core Ryzen run by a rookie on a stock cooler.

AM3+ is still my favourite platform to play with so maybe I'm a bit biased but I don't see Ryzen 7 as it's natural competition. Athlon II, Phenom II & FX vs Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge and Haswell would be more interesting especially as most hardened overclockers will own at least 2 of the platforms and probably half a dozen CPU's.

I'll be overclocking however you decide to carry on, just trying to make constructive sugestions. People all over YouTube are arguing about AMD vs Intel so competitions that could pit the two against each other with benches that take advantage of each CPU's abilities would make the HwBot scene a bit more relevant to the mainstream users and gamers.

websmile 08-11-2017 15:32

Re: Why is Ryzen 8 core against FX CPU's??
I am always happy about input - the ryzen "problem" is because after long years AMD finally released a revolutionary new platform, the step was much bigger as on Intel 1150 for 1151 for example. It is nearly impossible to handle this in a way everyone is happy and it is fair, it was the best compromize we could get. Latest launches and the way some of them were handled make life really complicated for hwbot especially at planning stuff like rtp or team cup, apart from the big changes we also fight paper launches and delays on some platforms, so we can only hope to minimize damage this sometimes has on fair play and fun at competitions.

Jumper118 08-16-2017 22:12

Re: Why is Ryzen 8 core against FX CPU's??
i personally think the fx cpus would be best matched against ryzen 5 as well. maybe for next years div rounds you can move fx to the div vi with r5 and r5 v2(if thats a thing :P) and ryzen 7 and ryzen 7 v2 can be div iv?

chew* 08-19-2017 04:00

Re: Why is Ryzen 8 core against FX CPU's??
The problem is they marketed fx as 8core chips when in reality it should have been marketed as 4c/8t cmt.

Can not take that back once you state it as a true 8 core.

mickulty 08-21-2017 21:05

Re: Why is Ryzen 8 core against FX CPU's??
FX is 8 cores, they're just 8 slow cores. A 4c/8t CPU can on paper get as much work done when fed by 4 heavy threads as when fed by 8, an FX fed by 4 heavy threads is probably about ~40% unused. As I understand it the point of CMT was not to be in any way similar to SMT, but just to be a slightly more economical way to scale out core count.

It's sad to see what's ultimately the end of FX in regular competitions, IMO it's a really fun platform, but hopefully some solace can be taken in the fact that its contemporaries - sandy and ivy - are also pretty much irrelevant. Hopefully at some point in the future FX - or AM3 - will get a Div7 round and that 8320 will come in handy :)

Jumper118 08-22-2017 09:32

Re: Why is Ryzen 8 core against FX CPU's??

Originally Posted by chew* (Post 493644)
The problem is they marketed fx as 8core chips when in reality it should have been marketed as 4c/8t cmt.

Can not take that back once you state it as a true 8 core.

No its a real 8 core but like Mickulty said they are just slow cores. Only people on linus tech tips called them 4c8t.

chew* 08-25-2017 05:47

Re: Why is Ryzen 8 core against FX CPU's??
Amd Engineers called it cluster based smt. Personal conversation not heresay.

Amd marketing called it an 8 core.

You can call it whatever you want...if that being 8c then stop complaining...bot is based on core count not thread count. Always has.

No1Spank 08-25-2017 16:03

Re: Why is Ryzen 8 core against FX CPU's??
Clustered multi threading is designed to be used with RISC coding as found in games consoles and the old Amiga's, unfortunatley PC games are not written in that architecture or the CMT is far faster than SMT which requires all of the code to be written each time for each thread. The idea of clustered multi threading is to cut down the amounts of repeated instructions needed to execute code it was invented in the 70's by someone at IBM. It's the reason why games consoles have better gaming performance clock for clock than PC's.

As all PC programs are written for SMT it causes queing on cores that are waiting for the full set of instructions, FX cpu's are genuine cores but certain instruction sets are shared which causes the problems. In the PS4 & Xbox the coding is ideal for those CPU's, an Intel with SMT would be nowhere at console clock speeds with games coded for clustered multi threads.

If someone creates a CMT benchmark the FX would be top everytime (well maybe not against ThreadRipper etc).

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