Go Back   hwbot.org > News > HWBOT Frontpage News

HWBOT Frontpage News Official HWBOT articles and frontpage news

Reply
Thread Tools

Critical thinking - Should Maximus V Extreme be banned from competitive overclocking?

Introduction

The world of overclocking and the community it’s founded on is in essence not so much different from any other field of interest or social group. We have our own language, our own set of principles, our own set of shared motives and goals and (virtual) places we visit. Just like any other social group, once in a while we are forced to face an existential crisis; a problem that pushes us to think about what overclocking and benchmarking is, or what it is supposed to be. Over the years, we’ve had lengthy (and interesting) discussions regarding the usage of extreme cooling, a debate on whether or not graphical artifacts should be tolerated, if adjusting LOD values should be considered legit and many many more. In a recent conversation, overclocking legend Sampsa Kurri brought up an interesting subject that could very well bring us back into the position of facing another existential crisis.

In the video he linked a new feature of the infamous ROG OC Key is demoed. Let’s have a look.

As you can see in the video, this new feature of OC Key (currently without a marketing name, so let’s call it ROG Pause) allows the user to completely freeze the entire system at any point during the benchmark, go for a walk or (more likely) cool down the system and continue the benchmark when ready. As far as we can judge based on the very limited documentation available on the web or in the video, it seems that the ROG Pause functionality is purely hardware-based and stops the system on a hardware level. If correct, it’s important for two reasons:

  • It means that this new function is not affecting the benchmark’s perception of time directly as, for example, a speedhack software application would. It doesn’t speed up or slow down time, it just halts everything.
  • Unlike what MSI did upon themselves with a BIOS feature called “lab burst mode” on a couple of Llano mainboards, the perception of time is not altered either. For those who don’t know, the Lab Burst Mode essentially was a guarantee for successful overclocking past 133FSB. As power users (such as The Stilt) later pointed out, this featured altered the PLL (clock generator) mode, which caused the reported frequency to be higher than it really was. The frequency was not really 133+ MHz, it was much lower, but because it’s a hardware-level feature none of the software could detect this. The benchmark results with Lab Burst Mode are effectively hardware-based speedhacks.

Even though ROG Pause does not cheat the timer, on a fundamental level it’s affecting the benchmark’s legitimacy in quite a similar way. Not by affecting the timer of the hardware, but … by affecting real time!

That last sentence probably made you think I’m sort of a sci-fi lunatic. But bear with me for a few more lines as I’m going to explain why ROG Pause affects real time. But first, let’s think about the relativity of the PC’s timer and benchmark results.

It’s all relative …

‘Time’, so beautifully defined at Wikipedia as the continuing sequence of events occurring in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future, and a measure of the durations and frequencies of events and the intervals between them, is not an easy to grasp as a concept. We’re all able to work with it and somewhat understand the principles and the practical effects. Essential to understanding the implications of ROG Pause is understanding that the concept of ‘time’ on a PC configuration is, if not synced via network or internet, an arbitrarily defined constant designed to ensure that the configuration is running in sync with the real world. In other words: hardware and software engineers ensure that ‘one second’ on your PC equals ‘one second’ in real time. One of the reasons why it’s so important to have the PC’s timer line up with the real world time is to ensure that your PC can produce accurate measurements and predictions. After all, how would your PC be able to calculate the travel time between London and Paris if it does not have the correct definition of ’second’?

Okay, let’s make this a little more OC relevant. One of the most important measurement tools used to determine the performance of your system is FPS, Frames per second. As you know, the significance of any FPS indication is relative to two variables: the frame (“How many frames were calculated?”) and the time (“How much time has passed?”). In most 3DMarks the time is a constant, which means that for every benchmark the only variable is the amount of rendered frames. The decision to have the benchmark time constant is not a given, but merely an arbitrary decision made by the developers at Futuremark. In fact, when designing a benchmark that uses FPS as measuring tool, you need define both “frame” and “second”. We have to ask the questions “What constitutes a frame?” and “What is a second?”. Adjusting the definition of either parameter affects the significance of the performance measurement.

And this is something we, the overclocking community, already know!

A small note to end this paragraph with: adjusting the definition of either variable has been judged illegal by the majority of the overclocking community.

Measured time versus real time

So, now that we’ve established the importance of defining all variables as well as the significance of having the PC’s time line up with the real world time, we can have a closer look at the implications of the ROG Pause software. As we’ve figured out earlier in the write-up, ROG Pause does not seem to change the system’s perception of time. In other words, every second on the M5E equals a ‘real’ second. So, technically, that would mean that any performance measurement is a reliable measurement. Or does it?

The “Bolt Marathon” Paradox

Shock in the world of athletics! Usain Bolt, 100M Dash WR holder, has challenged Patrick Makau, marathon WR holder, for a marathon duel, claiming he can easily beat Makau’s best time and win the race. Makau, fit and healthy as he is, accepts the challenge and agrees to run the marathon first. He finishes the race in a time that ties with the current world record; he needed 2 h 03 min 38 sec, averaging 20.5 km/h, to finish the 42,195 km. Impressive!

Usain Bolt, sneaky as he is, will be using a different strategy to run the 42,195 km as fast as possible. Instead of performing the full marathon in one straight run, he splits the marathon up in stages of 100m. After every 100m, he will take a 5 minute rest. Bolt, not so fit and not so healthy, runs every 100m of the marathon in a very poor 10 seconds. Still, he finishes the 42,195 km in a brilliant 1h 10 min 19.5 sec, averaging an incredible 36 km/h.

So, there we have it! Usain Bolt took the WR for the fastest ever 42,195 km (“marathon”)!

Do you accept Bolt’s time as new WR for the marathon?

Probably not. And you are right not to! After all, Usain Bolt did not finish the marathon in 1h 10min 19.5sec, but actually used a lot more time. To be precise, he used 421,95x 5 minutes more as that’s the time he took to rest in between every 100m. Therefore, his real marathon time is 36h 20min 4.5sec!

ROG Pause and SuperPI

The same logic can be applied to the ROG Pause functionality with regards to any benchmark result. The easiest way to comprehend this is by using SuperPI, a benchmark which indicates how much time was needed to complete a specific calculation, as example. By enabling ROG Pause during a SuperPI benchmark, you do the exact same as what happened in the “Bolt’s Marathon” paradox. An example: there are two configurations, both assigned to complete the SuperPI 32M calculation as fast as possible. Both systems are configured exactly the same. System “Makau” will do the entire calculation in one run; System “Bolt” will be paused 1 second after every loop to cool down in order to ensure stability. The results are

  • System “Makau”: 5min 0sec 0ms
  • System “Bolt”: 5min 0sec 0ms

How much time did it take for both systems to finish the calculation? Well …

  • It took System “Makau” exactly 5min 0sec to finish the entire SuperPI 32M calculation.
  • It took System “Bolt” 5 minutes plus 25x 1 second, equaling 5min 25sec, to finish the calculation

As you figured out by now, the main conflict we have here is that there’s a difference between the measured time and the real time. And that’s where the existential crisis kicks in. Is it allowed to change the system’s perception of time to be altered during a benchmark? Is it allowed to split up any benchmark into an unlimited amount of sections? How long did it take to complete that 32M calculation?

3DMark01 and ROG Pause

Without any doubt, the first argument people will use in favor of the ROG Pause functionality is of course going to be 3DMark01. After all, the principle of starting and stopping a benchmark is essentially what makes 01 so different from all other benchmarks. And, yes, it’s true … even though 3DMark01 is supposed to be run as one long benchmark, overclockers still go subtest by subtest, segment by segment. But is it the same like ROG Pause? No, not at all. And here’s why:

  • First of all, the legitimacy of splitting up the benchmark into different segments is a feature of the benchmark. The benchmark developers have determined that it’s allowed to go subtest by subtest to get an overall score.
  • Secondly, the benchmark can only be split up in a pre-defined amount of subtests. Returning to the world of athletics, we could make the analogy with decathlon. In decathlon, there are also a pre-defined set of events in between which you can rest. It’s just part of the game.
  • Thirdly, the measured time it took to render X amount of frames during each subtest is equal to real time. Unlike ROG Pause, having the ability to segment the 3DMark01 benchmark does not create a difference between measured and real time.

Therefore, 3DMark01’s application feature to split up the benchmark into different segments is not a valid argument in favor of tolerating ROG Pause.

Conclusive lines

Ultimately, there only a few ways to overcome this existential crisis. Either we allow a difference in measured time and real time or we don’t. Each way has their own set of implications: If allowed, we break with our previous policies against altering any of the definitions set by the benchmark developers. If disallowed, we have to find a way to detect the usage of ROG Pause to be able to ban it. As the entire system is halted, including any system timer, no software application can measure the real time it took to complete the benchmark, which means there’s no software tool to detect the usage of ROG Pause. Practically, there are two solutions.

One solution would be to develop a software tool that checks at what point a benchmark started, syncs with a calibrated off-system clock (e.g.: via the internet) and syncs again when the benchmark finishes. In this case, a significant difference between the measured off-system time and the measured on-system time would indicate tampering. This is an interesting solution, but it comes with a serious development cost (it has to be very secure) and obviously requires you to always have your bench system connected to the internet.

The second option, suggested to me by a fellow member of the overclocking community, is a lot more drastic: nullify all benchmark results done with the Maximus V Extreme (or any other mainboard supporting ROG Pause), which effectively bans the board from being used in a competitive overclocking environment.

In any case, as a community we will have to think about the validity of benchmark results done with pausing. As it does not only affect the principles of the competitive aspect of overclocking/benchmarking, but also affect a (commercial) benchmark’s business selling point as indication of stability, I assume that benchmark developers such as Futuremark will also have internal discussions on this subject. The main purpose of this write-up was to inform you about the problem and implications of the feature rather than effectively imposing a new policy or rule at HWBOT. Of course, at HWBOT, we’re very interested in hearing your opinion and thoughts, so feel free to comment in the forums!


Jul 28, 2012 - News, Editorials, Articles - HWBOT
  #141  
Unread 07-31-2012, 09:45
Lucky_n00b's Avatar
Lucky_n00b Lucky_n00b is offline
robo cop
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: INDONESIA
Posts: 225
Default

*phew, just done reading all of this *

Firstly,
IMHO this is a well-put article with quite an interesting viewpoint, although the title might be a little bit too 'catchy' for some people here

I think what Petri says here already summed things up, let me highlight some of the things that caught my eye :

Quote:
Originally Posted by SF3D View Post
I think I will put my thoughts here too

There is this thing called "real time" which is related to gravitation and movement of the object. When we build computers we need to make them to be in the same time as we are living in. It is done with crystals and certain frequencies. This way computer can keep up with our time, but it need to do cooperation with software. You can alter this relationship of hardware and software by changing the hardware clock frequency or modify the software. Both ways are illegal, cause they are making the hardware/software time different than our own.

With pause function you stop this hardware/software clock and when you continue there is no time taken off from the benchmark or time added to benchmark. It is actually very simple feature, which could have been done long time a go, but there have not been these extra parts like oc key available. OC key is independent part, which does not have negative effect on performance, but it will give us possibility to change hardware settings without interfering with the software.

So, I just unpacked the M5E board and tested the pause feature. I does not affect the total computation time in Superpi runs etc, so hardware time is stopped completely while our "real time" is still going on. When you release the system, it will continue from the position it was left before going in to pause mode.

You can adjust multiplier and voltage while you are in pause mode, so when for example 3DMark05 GT1 is over you can pause your system and drop 1 multiplier down, to make your system fully stable.

So final conclusion is, that this feature does not have anything to do with cheating in a benchmark cause the computation will be complete and software is not modified. The changes are only in hardware level and we have been doing it already years with EVGA bot and ASUS Tweakit features. Now you can do it without stress..you have plenty of time to modify settings and continue to 3DMark11 physics test for example.

Massman brought up this discussion, cause this is a new thing and our rules does not know it yet. Calling him a hater etc is just silly and tell's more about the persons themselves than Pieter-Jan.Some guys should really show some respect that he have been able to get this site running so well. What would we do without hwbot in competitive overclocking? We would still live in stone age of the overclocking without HWbot, so please keep this in your mind before you start to call other people on names.
a) It does NOT change the benchmark 'load' as the Lucid Virtu MVP did
b) It is indeed a NEW feature, so I think it's acceptable if some people did question it's method and how did it comply with our community's rules.

Last time I remember, questioning something does NOT make you a hater, does it?

All things considered, I'll vote to allow this feature(or the motherboard in this case).

If I found myself needing this feature that much, I'll probably buy the board

Just my 2cents,
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Unread 07-31-2012, 13:38
hey hey is offline
kitchen robot
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Turkey
Posts: 4
Default

i remember the old times when a feature came out and you could change the cpu speed between 06 tests.Here the case is totally same!! Was other brands have it at that time? and did we complain that our mabo cant do this ? We didnt and after, many brands included similar features.. I appreciate you guys to make things more fair; but extreme overclocking things cant be fair . Come on give credits to ASUS developing this new feature to oc community. Also i saw some agressive comments about it is obvious the reason of delelopping this feature etc..if this was the reason had bad intention, asus andre or shamino would keep this for themselves only and other brands even wouldnt have any kind of thinking to develop such feature and watch asus top always ...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Unread 07-31-2012, 14:28
Splave's Avatar
Splave Splave is online now
Opera aficionado
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UNITED STATES
Posts: 1,400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScunnyUK View Post
That is not the same thing, push the system to its limits using helium and at the point where it runs Wprime 1024m but crashes at say .. 90% but cannot complete it. Then run it again but use the pause feature for a minute every 5 or 10 seconds and it will most likely complete the run.
to be honest mate, wprime 1024m would take approx $200 a run on helium so not really something feasible but I see what you are saying.


On ln2 unless you are using an old soda can as your pot you may gain 5-10mhz and that is within tolerance of a good and bad run.



__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by oc_windforce View Post
you are pi-machine....
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Unread 07-31-2012, 15:23
hokiealumnus's Avatar
hokiealumnus hokiealumnus is offline
robo cop
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: UNITED STATES
Posts: 322
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SF3D View Post
So, I just unpacked the M5E board and tested the pause feature. I does not affect the total computation time in Superpi runs etc, so hardware time is stopped completely while our "real time" is still going on. When you release the system, it will continue from the position it was left before going in to pause mode.

You can adjust multiplier and voltage while you are in pause mode, so when for example 3DMark05 GT1 is over you can pause your system and drop 1 multiplier down, to make your system fully stable.

So final conclusion is, that this feature does not have anything to do with cheating in a benchmark cause the computation will be complete and software is not modified. The changes are only in hardware level and we have been doing it already years with EVGA bot and ASUS Tweakit features. Now you can do it without stress..you have plenty of time to modify settings and continue to 3DMark11 physics test for example.
That pretty much seals it for me, as does Splave's testimony in multiple posts that it doesn't change benchmark results.

Plus it would be rather difficult (impossible?) to enforce without introducing a requirement for CPUz motherboard tab. Then the question becomes, do you really want to alter the entire structure of HWBot screenshot submissions to require something like that solely for a feature that does nothing to affect benchmark times? If HWBot does do this and ASUS comes out with a BIOS that cannot pause, do you really want your mods to have to delve into screenshots, not only to see what board was used but to also verify which BIOS version was used, of which several may have pause and several may not, forcing them to have a list of which BIOSes are acceptable and which are not? What about those that already purchased this $400+ board? It would hardly be fair to implement a ban on the board after they purchased it. To be fair, the rule would have to be effective for future boards that implement a pause feature...and who is to say there will be any?

If votes are being tallied, count me in the no, do not ban this board camp.

a) There is no point because it doesn't affect benchmark times.
b) Enforcement would inconvenience all those that submit to HWBot as well as the volunteer mods that check scores.
c) It would be completely unfair to retroactively implement this rule because of those that already purchased the board.
d) Lastly, it would also serve to stifle additional innovation, as mentioned previously.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massman View Post
You just got SB'd.
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Unread 07-31-2012, 15:42
Massman's Avatar
Massman Massman is offline
Abhorrently evil braindead kind-hearted money-driven child-hating short-sighted hardware-sharing cheating
macho nacho supreme discriminating clueless idiot boy genius with sense of humor
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Waregem, Belgium
Posts: 16,050
Send a message via MSN to Massman
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hey View Post
i remember the old times when a feature came out and you could change the cpu speed between 06 tests.Here the case is totally same!! Was other brands have it at that time? and did we complain that our mabo cant do this ? We didnt and after, many brands included similar features.. I appreciate you guys to make things more fair; but extreme overclocking things cant be fair . Come on give credits to ASUS developing this new feature to oc community. Also i saw some agressive comments about it is obvious the reason of delelopping this feature etc..if this was the reason had bad intention, asus andre or shamino would keep this for themselves only and other brands even wouldnt have any kind of thinking to develop such feature and watch asus top always ...
I remember when the TweakIT feature was launched together with the first Rampage Extreme, people did actually wonder about the legitimacy of the feature. They posed questions, but eventually it was accepted by the large majority of the community.
__________________
Where courage, motivation and ignorance meet, a persistent idiot awakens.

Things people say: Massman is a god (05-02-2102), You're a genius (25-10-2011), Massman, overlord of overclocking (07-30-2010), brain dead corporate dude that deserves to be stillborn (09-18-2010)
Things I write: Critical thinking - Should Maximus V Extreme be banned from competitive overclocking?, HWBOT Vision 2012, The Industry’s Social Responsibilities – Support the Community., In Response to Chew's Goodbye Note (the unhealthy relation between company and community), The X58A-OC, the enthusiast community and a long-term vision, The Efficiency Rating, Hardware sharing, nostra culpa?, The paradox of a fair overclocking competition, HWBOT Memory Index v0.1, AMD Thuban Voltage and Temperature Scaling, Is LN2 on GPU really worth the trouble?
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Unread 07-31-2012, 15:51
jurek jurek is offline
robo cop
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: POLAND
Posts: 214
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Massman View Post
... the large majority of the community.
if it was accepted by the small majority would it got banned?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Unread 07-31-2012, 15:53
Massman's Avatar
Massman Massman is offline
Abhorrently evil braindead kind-hearted money-driven child-hating short-sighted hardware-sharing cheating
macho nacho supreme discriminating clueless idiot boy genius with sense of humor
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Waregem, Belgium
Posts: 16,050
Send a message via MSN to Massman
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
if it was accepted by the small majority would it got banned?
There wasn't really any vote on it back then; everyone just sort of went for it. Can't remember anyone putting any critic on paper/article either.
__________________
Where courage, motivation and ignorance meet, a persistent idiot awakens.

Things people say: Massman is a god (05-02-2102), You're a genius (25-10-2011), Massman, overlord of overclocking (07-30-2010), brain dead corporate dude that deserves to be stillborn (09-18-2010)
Things I write: Critical thinking - Should Maximus V Extreme be banned from competitive overclocking?, HWBOT Vision 2012, The Industry’s Social Responsibilities – Support the Community., In Response to Chew's Goodbye Note (the unhealthy relation between company and community), The X58A-OC, the enthusiast community and a long-term vision, The Efficiency Rating, Hardware sharing, nostra culpa?, The paradox of a fair overclocking competition, HWBOT Memory Index v0.1, AMD Thuban Voltage and Temperature Scaling, Is LN2 on GPU really worth the trouble?
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Unread 07-31-2012, 15:57
Splave's Avatar
Splave Splave is online now
Opera aficionado
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UNITED STATES
Posts: 1,400
Default

first time I heard about this feature I knew this thread was going to happen just didnt know when I dont think its bad to talk about it, thats how logical decisions are made.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by oc_windforce View Post
you are pi-machine....
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Unread 07-31-2012, 16:14
ScunnyUK's Avatar
ScunnyUK ScunnyUK is offline
construction bot
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 60
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by [GF]Duke View Post
Rules....are made to be broken.
No that would be cheating



Quote:
Originally Posted by Splave View Post
to be honest mate, wprime 1024m would take approx $200 a run on helium so not really something feasible but I see what you are saying.


On ln2 unless you are using an old soda can as your pot you may gain 5-10mhz and that is within tolerance of a good and bad run.


My referring of Helium was just in response to jurek's response to my first response of this thread
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Unread 07-31-2012, 17:02
|ron's Avatar
|ron |ron is offline
robo cop
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Italy
Posts: 386
Default

I'll try to summarize what will that feature mean bench by bench, correct me if I'm wrong:
- Spi1M: no differences
- Spi32M: little advantage in cpu frequencies?
- Pifast: dunno, I'm not addicted to that bench
- Wprime 32M: no differences
- Wprime 1024M: advantage in CPU freqs, can't tell how much
- 3DM01: none/small differences in CPU freq
- 3DM03: maybe a little advantage in CPU freq in GT1
- 3DM05: quite the same as 3DM03
- 3DM06: this is where probably there will be a good advantage in CPU tests frequencies
- 3DMVantage: same as 06
- 3DM11: same as above, but the Physics score is less important than in 06 and Vantage
- Aquamark: little advantage in CPU freq maybe
- Unigine: CPU not so fundamental, so I don't think it'll be used in unigine

So, on 13 Benchmarks, there will be a clear advantage in 3 of them. in 5/6 of them there will be small advantages.
Starting from that abstract (and I repeat, correct me if I'm wrong), can we put some numbers followed by %, to understand how much this feature will impact on the final score?
Only after that, we can have a brighter idea about what to vote... just my 2 cents
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 18:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright COLARDYN IT GCV 2004 - 2013