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  #151  
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Default Re: Get ready for HWBOT rev7

strunkenbold has good point. This 70% cliff can absolutely hurt new overclockers from joining. Many here leaving as well. Then great scores recorded in past are lost forever.

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Originally Posted by jab383 View Post
adjusted.
It's unfortunate that this effect encourages those who are factory sponsored or can afford the great expense and comes at the expense of those whose points are reduced or fall off the 70% cliff. The effect is not encouraging to the developing or casual overclocker.
IMO start the % cliff as low as possible say 10% ... so to judge impact first
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  #152  
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Default Re: Get ready for HWBOT rev7

It would be fun to simplify the algorithm for globals. A lot. Just do percentage of the top score. Points for top score a fixed number, same for every benchmark. But of course limit the number of benchmarks that get points so that irrelevant sli/cf categories don't get easy points.

There would be some interesting benefits:
Minimize backup top scores.
Competition would be more fierce as the difference in points would be small.
It would promote benching even if you cant reach top 3 results. A top 10 or top 20 score would still not be that far behind if the actual result is decent.
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  #153  
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Default Re: Get ready for HWBOT rev7

How do you want to handle granularity at 10%? Is it really making sense to give global points to results of 50 seconds or 40 minutes at super pi 1M or 32m respectively? And how is the relation to subs of maybe 6 minutes against the 40m? I am not against a movement of the percentage barrier, but it has to make sense. The percentage system already causes some problems especially at hardware rankings locked chips which we have from 2011 and afterwards because even stock results at cpuz frequency get a lot of more points than before, if we go for 10% we will make the ranking a joke at some benchmarks.

P.S. We had the non percentage system long ago on which the points were determined only by ranking and number of submissions was irrelevant. I am not sure people want to see this again, like 24 core wprime getting major point boosts again
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  #154  
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Default Re: Get ready for HWBOT rev7

That's why globals should be given only for select benchmarks/cores/sli-configurations.
Current uat is kind if like 24c wprime with the 4way points for 3dmark01, 3d05 etc.

Current uat: 136 000 3dmarks for 4way 3d01 gives almost 100 global points. Which is the same as second place in single gpu ranking with a score if 220 000 3dmarks...
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  #155  
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Default Re: Get ready for HWBOT rev7

128 subs at 18 core and 65k at quad core and you get 90 globals vs 120 at XTU, even 4 way sli at 01 has more subs than 18 core xtu... You see things much too one sided, hwbot would have to restrict lots of cpu categories as well for example. I am no fan of the useless non scaling multi gpu scores, but the pattern is killed easily when you start to cut things of
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  #156  
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Default Re: Get ready for HWBOT rev7

Elite + Extreme league = 2100 members.

Elite + Extreme = LN2

Global points go to LN2.

Can't be said in a simpler way.
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  #157  
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Default Re: Get ready for HWBOT rev7

The global points do not go to extreme or elite because of them having LN2 at dewars but because of the use of LN2 to cool their hardware enables frequencies that allow the benchers to run the benchmarks faster than on air or water. That´s the simple truth. You can not win the Formula one on a retail Toyota Yaris against a 1000hp racecar as well.
There were times when hwbot did not have seperate leagues, there was no enthusiast or apprentice league for example. These leagues cause a lot of trouble at controlling the cooling used, but they were introduced because someone saw the need for same chances at same cooling level. In theory, everyone in each league has same base to win or not win globals or hwboints, but when you compete against someone with better cooling and 2ghz more on cpu because of this you cannot expect to get same results aka same global points like extreme benchers when you are enthusiast.
On the percentage of the cap for points is always headroom, nontheless these are a bonus for good results and cannot get gifted away like free candy at carnival. I am open for a cap at a lower percentage value, but we should not forget that this is a competetive ranking

P.S. Imho, we can lower percentage and make a start then, all other topics we see we can adjust on the way. Now for all of us the launch of a new and more stable environment should have priority.
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  #158  
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Default Re: Get ready for HWBOT rev7

Quote:
Originally Posted by websmile View Post
The global points do not go to extreme or elite because of them having LN2 at dewars but because of the use of LN2 to cool their hardware enables frequencies that allow the benchers to run the benchmarks faster than on air or water. That´s the simple truth. You can not win the Formula one on a retail Toyota Yaris against a 1000hp racecar as well.
There were times when hwbot did not have seperate leagues, there was no enthusiast or apprentice league for example. These leagues cause a lot of trouble at controlling the cooling used, but they were introduced because someone saw the need for same chances at same cooling level. In theory, everyone in each league has same base to win or not win globals or hwboints, but when you compete against someone with better cooling and 2ghz more on cpu because of this you cannot expect to get same results aka same global points like extreme benchers when you are enthusiast.
On the percentage of the cap for points is always headroom, nontheless these are a bonus for good results and cannot get gifted away like free candy at carnival. I am open for a cap at a lower percentage value, but we should not forget that this is a competetive ranking

P.S. Imho, we can lower percentage and make a start then, all other topics we see we can adjust on the way. Now for all of us the launch of a new and more stable environment should have priority.
Great post & level response.
My example of 10% cliff is just example before ... not study algorithms here.
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Originally Posted by buildzoid View Post
Just award points from first all the way to last(which of course gets 0 points). Right now looking at some UAT global points rankings looks ridiculous when the majority of the scores in the ranking are awarded 0 points. The side effect of this is that it makes 0 sense for a lot of people to even try to get globals. Which IMO is a huge fail when HWbot's main goals should be to encourage people to bench MORE and to rank people based on overclocking skill. The hard point cutoff discourages people from benching unless they own current gen top end hardware.
^ Example so scores all the way down to 0 is one extreme .. too far from the new HWbot idea
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Originally Posted by Strunkenbold View Post

1. New technology makes old effort worth nothing

We see that already with every new CPU generation impacting GPU scores. At the moment you just loose points. In rev7 there is the threat that you get no longer points at all because you fell under the 70% cliff.

2. Motivation is lost to submit scores that are not TOP 3

Seems like submitting scores now require some strategy. Its sort of sandbagging v2.0. Lets say we have new ranking because of new hardware or benchmark so its empty. You first submission needs to be bad, so you attract other benchers to feed the ranking with scores. After some time you come around with with your LN2 score. You get a lot of points for your first place but all other benchers with Air or Water scores now get nothing. It doesn't feel right that your score profit from a lot of users but those users get basically punished from your score.
That hurt newbies and casual benchers.

I have to express again that I really really dont like this "69% your score is worth nothing" feature. You can basically now play the bad man and kill points for a lot of users. It cant be right that lets say 10 people received points in the ranking and after you submitted youre 130% score only 3 people including you have points.
As Richbastard said reward is to do #1 score or very close to it.
Example above. Say air water scores x10 average 20-30 points on a bench.
Then along comes the LN2 score 60 points. Causes big divide from #1 score to others.

LN2 OC envy .... it's gonna be on
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  #159  
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Default Re: Get ready for HWBOT rev7

It's a sterile discussion, until one do not separate the categories only by the cooling used and the hardware quality part used, there is no solution to this.
Since this will not happen, because it would mean that the top ocers would need not only to bench on LN2 to get max point, but would also steep down to other way of cooling. Don't think they would enjoy it just to allow others lower cooling plebs to have a decent competition.

Also a F1 would win a race on a racetrack, but suck on a mountain rally, the opposite will happen for the Toyota rally. That's why both competitions are separated, even they are both racing cars! Comparing a F1 to a normal street Toyota is pointless, because you will never see these two compete in the same category! What indeed is happening on HWBOT since the aircooling compete basically in the same category than the LN2!

There is 2 things that dictate how the hardware behave, the T° and the hardware part quality, so the common sense would divide categories by these two factors and not mix everything together, if one is looking for a fair competition.
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  #160  
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Default Re: Get ready for HWBOT rev7

Quote:
Originally Posted by websmile View Post
The global points do not go to extreme or elite because of them having LN2 at dewars but because of the use of LN2 to cool their hardware enables frequencies that allow the benchers to run the benchmarks faster than on air or water. That´s the simple truth. You can not win the Formula one on a retail Toyota Yaris against a 1000hp racecar as well.
If some in 250hp hatchback beats every other 250hp car as well as some 300hp cars they should get some recognition for it(points), not anywhere near as much recognition as the record holder for the track but more than anyone slower than them. In the new system you are basically telling everyone that doesn't have a Titan V/1080Ti and 7980XE that their modern 3D score is just as valuable as the score of some guy on a laptop iGPU running stock. The current system already does this to some extent and IMO it's not a good thing but the new system just makes that worse as VEGA, GP104 and some GP102 owners who currently can get some global points get kicked into irrelevance.

IDK about everyone else but I want more people to bench more and the point cliff that the new system IMO actively discourages a lot people from benching(and not everyone wants to bench time and hardware limited competitions).
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