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View Poll Results: Where should it be ranked
Under GTX 295 24 48.00%
Under it's own category (GTX 285 x2) 23 46.00%
Under GTX 285 SLI (2x GTX 285) 3 6.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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  #71  
Old 04-06-2017
knopflerbruce knopflerbruce is offline
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Default Re: Poll: ASUS Mars Dual GTX285, where should it be ranked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K404 View Post
Everyone with a GTX295 is a victim
I suspect you wrote that as a joke, but it's true in more ways. Anyone with a 295 is a victim as they have to go up against GPUs with less sh*t dsabled
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  #72  
Old 04-06-2017
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Default Re: Poll: ASUS Mars Dual GTX285, where should it be ranked?

The line is not to create new useless categories, not to make random decisions after years to annoy users and that reliability for benchers is most important stuf we offer at hwbot. I am aware of the fact that this contradicts your interests, but I do not care for several reasons, one of these is I don´t rate myself more important than the community and I personally don´t care for useless 1 sumission cups.
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  #73  
Old 04-06-2017
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Default Re: Poll: ASUS Mars Dual GTX285, where should it be ranked?

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Originally Posted by ZFeSS View Post
In this case, I think I'll request new category for each new Chinese card with modded Device ID. Please add a 9600GT 12sp 128bit DDR3 card. Stickers and cooler said that it was 9600GT and even driver from CD was agree with that. Manufacture had declared it as 9600GT. I don't know why I post it to the most similar category.
Do we really need to make a new category for each exceptional card if performance not affected?
You do realize that this is the exact case why we cant solely rely on the name GPU-Z displays us and the DeviceID the manufacturer is programming their device? We somewhere must look at the specs.
Also we have a lot of obscure cards in the db. Rebranded OEM stuff. Wild combinations of different cores, different shaders, different memory chips under the same marketing name. You maybe understand that we cant test if all those combinations have performance differences which qualify for a new category. It wasnt me who started this policy, but basically someone decided, it would be wise to assume _there is_ a performance difference when some of the main specs are different.

When you say, there is no performance difference between the Mars and 295, we basically can stop splitting cards in different categories as long as we made an investigation to proof, that a difference of maybe 5% really exists. I think you can imagine that this is not possible.
Also I wonder why Nvidia made a 285 and a 275 afterall if there is actually no performance difference between them.

The fun fact for me is, we wont even had the discussion in the first place if Asus decided to use the 285 ID like they used the 7970 ID for their Ares II card.

Now what are we actually arguing about?
I think we haven proven now that GPU-Z isnt reliable. (see the AMD cards disaster)
Also DeviceID isnt reliable (see aboves China card example, or Neys fake GTX 260)
We have categories in db which are only there because of existing marketing names, where neither GPU-Z or DeviceID can tell us the exact card. (see nvidia 6800 series)
Cards with identical marketing names where separated because of different specs, because someone made a guess that the performance could be possibly affected.
We cant measure exact performance impact of different specs, because of the effort it would take to do the examination, yet we try to be as fair as possible. (see GTX 260 192 vs 216)
Things like memory timings, # of power plugs, special pcb design and so on which might affect performance as well cant be taken in consideration because of a possible inflation of categories and the fact that we simply cannot detect those things with software of any kind.

So I think its clear that creating categories were never a easy task and I cant imagine every decision in the past was deeply thought nor everytime correct. Dont we also have more informations available today where we can justify our decisions on, than the people had available 10 years ago?
Yet still we say "dont change anything" because things were good in the past and now you change it to bad. "You guys had to know all and everything 10 years ago, now its too late."

If I get this right, this means stop doing any cleanups of the db. If things are messy just ignore this old cruft, because there was somewhere someone submitting in the past relying on the correctness of the category or the fact that no one in 10 years stumbled over this and reported. And we probably should apologize by everyone where we already did a cleanup and "stole" his points.

If my assumption of the problem is correct than call me in, because no one wants to work on something which everyone just sees as pointless.
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  #74  
Old 04-06-2017
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Default Re: Poll: ASUS Mars Dual GTX285, where should it be ranked?

@knopflerbruce
Before we fade away into further useless discussion I will try to explain my reasons again, you don´t have to agree, it is one way to see things
1. Reliability of decisions and database are important for me. People buy hardware, spend money on older gen cards relying on categorization of cards for example when they bench for ranking, they invest time, maybe LN2 and risk killig cpus etc. The example with 9800gtx(+) and 6800gt/Ultra and 7900GTO/GTX show that these decisions in the past often followed no pattern, but that it was decided on the point of view then. Same device id, diffrent clock=merged, same device ID, different clocks= seperated listing, different device ID, same core, different mem= divided and so on.
If we now start to overturn some of these decisions this changes database, ranking, points. It kills the purpose of the effort people made
2. If we change now Mars to own category, the purpose for users is killed. The card is recognized as 295GTX by driver and GPUZ, you are right that it is no generic 295GTX, it is 2x285GTX. If we would have listed it this way from the start, no problem. It was listed at 295gtx for lots of years, silence is consent, people relied on it. Because we have no pattern (refer to point 1) it can happen in all ways in the future. The 8800GTS G92, the 9800GTX(+) and the 250GTS use practically same vga core when you see shaders and rops, all use ddr3 memory and are seperated by device ID, all are official NV releases btw. we now move the mars despite same device id as 295 to different category because of 4 more ROPs, shouldn´t we then merge cards with same core, rops and units to same category? Only clocks and device ID seperate them, but as we have no pattern and can easily overthrow decisions once made, this is irrelevant. We already ignored device ID and we already merged (or seperated randomly) cards with different clocks and same core...

The result of this is we have killed again the effort of this time hundreds of people by overthrowing a nearly 10 year old decision, using the same random semi logic we used in the past.
Same can happen to a lot of categries, 88000GTX oc models have same clocks as 8800 Ultra stock sometímes, 8800GT and 9800GT are practially same apart from device ID etc. You can also create a lot of new ctaegories at older vgas like happened recently, some categories that we listed from start of hwbot were seperated for bus etc. the possibilities are endless.
What makes it even more disturbing, what tells the normal bencher that even the new decision stays the way it was made now? Next year maybe you or me get chief of database or decide this for whatever reason, I see mars and say let´s put it ack to 295GTX bc of device ID...

I hope this makes my point of view a bit more clear, I do not expect you to agree, but that´s not needed^^
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  #75  
Old 04-06-2017
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Default Re: Poll: ASUS Mars Dual GTX285, where should it be ranked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by websmile View Post
@knopflerbruce
Before we fade away into further useless discussion I will try to explain my reasons again, you don´t have to agree, it is one way to see things
1. Reliability of decisions and database are important for me. People buy hardware, spend money on older gen cards relying on categorization of cards for example when they bench for ranking, they invest time, maybe LN2 and risk killig cpus etc. The example with 9800gtx(+) and 6800gt/Ultra and 7900GTO/GTX show that these decisions in the past often followed no pattern, but that it was decided on the point of view then. Same device id, diffrent clock=merged, same device ID, different clocks= seperated listing, different device ID, same core, different mem= divided and so on.
If we now start to overturn some of these decisions this changes database, ranking, points. It kills the purpose of the effort people made
2. If we change now Mars to own category, the purpose for users is killed. The card is recognized as 295GTX by driver and GPUZ, you are right that it is no generic 295GTX, it is 2x285GTX. If we would have listed it this way from the start, no problem. It was listed at 295gtx for lots of years, silence is consent, people relied on it. Because we have no pattern (refer to point 1) it can happen in all ways in the future. The 8800GTS G92, the 9800GTX(+) and the 250GTS use practically same vga core when you see shaders and rops, all use ddr3 memory and are seperated by device ID, all are official NV releases btw. we now move the mars despite same device id as 295 to different category because of 4 more ROPs, shouldn´t we then merge cards with same core, rops and units to same category? Only clocks and device ID seperate them, but as we have no pattern and can easily overthrow decisions once made, this is irrelevant. We already ignored device ID and we already merged (or seperated randomly) cards with different clocks and same core...

The result of this is we have killed again the effort of this time hundreds of people by overthrowing a nearly 10 year old decision, using the same random semi logic we used in the past.
Same can happen to a lot of categries, 88000GTX oc models have same clocks as 8800 Ultra stock sometímes, 8800GT and 9800GT are practially same apart from device ID etc. You can also create a lot of new ctaegories at older vgas like happened recently, some categories that we listed from start of hwbot were seperated for bus etc. the possibilities are endless.
What makes it even more disturbing, what tells the normal bencher that even the new decision stays the way it was made now? Next year maybe you or me get chief of database or decide this for whatever reason, I see mars and say let´s put it ack to 295GTX bc of device ID...

I hope this makes my point of view a bit more clear, I do not expect you to agree, but that´s not needed^^
I doubt you will find many cases where different bus widths has not been a good enough reason to add more categories. In general the idea is to split when a split is needed, and in the case of 9800 GTX the categories were merged as it was not possible to distinguish between the two. But they were split at first, just like 6800GT/Ultra PCIe (the inconsistency here is that these were not merged, but as you can clearly identify what a mars is by looking at GPUZ it's hardly the same thing).

Consistency is important, we do not disagree there, but just as much as you can feel sympathy for the ones who have bought a Mars for top dollar to run it as a 295, you have all those who can't stand a chance no matter how many 295's they buy or how many litres of LN2 they throw at the cards they have available. The fact that Mars is nowhere to be found doesn't help, either. It's not like you can just go on ebay and buy four of these. In reality an obscure GPU gets ton of extra (hardware) points because it's matched against inferior hardware.

If G34 setups were massively popular and I'd get 50 points for running unlocked ES against people with locked chips I'd understand it if my results were moved to separate categories. As of today nobody gives a damn, because they get 2p each But you might remember when people complained because I got "easy" globals from running weird core count chips, that changed - overnight the subs became useless. All the money I spent on these odd chips, which was probably more than what most people paid for a pair of Mars GPUs, didn't matter.
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  #76  
Old 04-06-2017
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Default Re: Poll: ASUS Mars Dual GTX285, where should it be ranked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by knopflerbruce View Post
...you have all those who can't stand a chance no matter how many 295's they buy or how many litres of LN2 they throw at the cards they have available. The fact that Mars is nowhere to be found doesn't help, either. It's not like you can just go on ebay and buy four of these. In reality an obscure GPU gets ton of extra (hardware) points because it's matched against inferior hardware.
You really have no clue. The reason der8auers scores with the Mars are better than all others is that he modded, made special ln2-pots and benched the bunnyextraction out of the card paired with one of the best CPUs in the world. All others just use stock cooler or maybe water...

The main thing, and what reasonable people here agree on, is not the technicalities. It SHOULD have been a category of its own. But it was not done so. Touch luck, but the consequences of altering this 10 years later is way bigger than just letting it stay where it has always been. You can of course still beat a mars with a gtx 295. But you have to work for it, it is not the easy 50-pointers that people get with 4870X2 etc cards. This is the real reason this was brought up. People want the easy points...

If you want to look at real world differences, check old reviews. (https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/...5_MARS/25.html) It shows that a 295 actually beats the mars in 3D05 and is very close in 06. Even back then it was CPU-bound. Diff in 03 is about 10%, but that is attributed to higher clockspeeds, not so much the extra ROPs or bus width. Actually the clock speeds are more than 10% higher than the 295...

So all in all, people want to rewrite 10 year old history based on a technicality that makes no difference in the real world!

Another thing to consider when making a decision;
Who looses on keeping the mars in the 295-category?
Who looses on separating it?

The answer to the first question is the ones who wants der8auers scores removed so they can get the 50 points for themselves without an effort.
The second answer is everyone who has spent money and worked hard on benching their mars cards. Der8auer is not the only one.

So, hwbot, make a decision and get this over with.
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  #77  
Old 04-06-2017
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Default Re: Poll: ASUS Mars Dual GTX285, where should it be ranked?

I try to find consent:
1. We should in general not touch any categories which are flawlessly detected by GPU-Z even if there is no difference of the silicon. This way all the big points categories should stay like they are in the moment.
2. If there are no differences in the specs and GPU-Z display the same name and no differences at all, categories should get merged.
This mostly affects low point categories. So by merging those should get actually even more attractive to users because of the higher points to obtain.
Exception of this are old cards where GPU-Z is simply not enough detect the cards.
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  #78  
Old 04-06-2017
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Default Re: Poll: ASUS Mars Dual GTX285, where should it be ranked?

Don't want to rewrite history? ok
Dont' want to separate MARS from 295? ok

But, at the end, they are two different vgas

Are they similar? So why not merge every similar vgas?
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  #79  
Old 04-06-2017
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Default Re: Poll: ASUS Mars Dual GTX285, where should it be ranked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by superpatodonaldo View Post
Don't want to rewrite history? ok
/.../
So why not merge every similar vgas?
Because that would be rewriting history...
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Old 04-06-2017
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Default Re: Poll: ASUS Mars Dual GTX285, where should it be ranked?

so ones can be merged (in the past) and ones no.....
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