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  #71  
Old 01-24-2012
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I agree, Borandi. The minimum points rule should have been variable since the beginning ...

http://bugs.hwbot.org/browse/HWBOT-694
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  #72  
Old 01-24-2012
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  #73  
Old 01-24-2012
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IMO the top spot should have a high minimum. 1st place is (nearly) always a PITA to get (no easy ones below 20 cores). Then we can let the points drop faster instead, if there are just like 10 people fighting, then #1 still gets 50p or so, but 5th place won't get too much (maybe 50-35-25-15-10 is a good way to distribute points).

I've been battling these type of low-popularity rankings for a few years... the top scores are top scores for a reason, not just because someone bothered benching his CPU while watching a sitcom. Top 5 is usually quite easy, but that's it. Then again, getting 15-20 points in the more popular rankings is also a walk in the park these days.
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  #74  
Old 01-24-2012
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I think the case of my E7-8860 rig, though, proves that there should be variable awards for top spots, as suggested. Having a rare machine like this and benching it should be worth something, but it should not be what is essentially a bye to first place in the EL.
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  #75  
Old 01-24-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massman View Post
I agree, Borandi. The minimum points rule should have been variable since the beginning ...

http://bugs.hwbot.org/browse/HWBOT-694
I don't mean to complicate things, but this seems pretty similar to how Rev4 handles TPP. As individuals can dominate the enthusiast league with obscure hardware, so can teams dominate the teams league on obscure hardware.

The easiest way to get 50 TPP? Request a new CPU be added, run the 10 2D benches which award HTPP at stock.

Or you could take 3x pcmark05 global 1st and get 80 TPP. One way is very expensive and challenging enough that few people could do it - the other way...

I chose the pcmark05 route because it was the cooler way. However, any smart team would recognize there are a lot of quick, easy, and valuable points to be had by benching rare stuff or low competition stuff.

In spirit, the way HTPP are awarded should encourage more competition in those categories since they are valuable (as I understood it, that was part of the idea behind the Rev4 TPP scheme) - I get the intention, however in 95% of oddball categories it is not creating competition, its just giving easy points.

If I had DB access to hwbot, I'd be curious to run a query looking at the top 20 teams, to see how many 1st place HTPP each team has in categories where there is no competition.

By the way, just a minor gripe - I think overall the scoring system is working pretty good.
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  #76  
Old 01-24-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I.M.O.G. View Post
I don't mean to complicate things, but this seems pretty similar to how Rev4 handles TPP. As individuals can dominate the enthusiast league with obscure hardware, so can teams dominate the teams league on obscure hardware.

The easiest way to get 50 TPP? Request a new CPU be added, run the 10 2D benches which award HTPP at stock.

Or you could take 3x pcmark05 global 1st and get 80 TPP. One way is very expensive and challenging enough that few people could do it - the other way...

I chose the pcmark05 route because it was the cooler way. However, any smart team would recognize there are a lot of quick, easy, and valuable points to be had by benching rare stuff or low competition stuff.

In spirit, the way HTPP are awarded should encourage more competition in those categories since they are valuable (as I understood it, that was part of the idea behind the Rev4 TPP scheme) - I get the intention, however in 95% of oddball categories it is not creating competition, its just giving easy points.

If I had DB access to hwbot, I'd be curious to run a query looking at the top 20 teams, to see how many 1st place HTPP each team has in categories where there is no competition.

By the way, just a minor gripe - I think overall the scoring system is working pretty good.
This kinda makes sense. I wonder if massman can post the "score formula" for this one... 5 points could be a tad too high if there's no competition, but it's also interesting to see what it looks like when more teams are competing. I checked my Q6600 PiFast score, and it gets about 95 HTPP. That's 19 times higher than the no competition reward. To compare: the user points for hardware is 2 for 1-20 competitors, and it maxes out at 50. The same ratio is 25 here. If we assume the max is 100 for HTPP, then a similar ratio means 4 HTPP for submissions with no competition from other teams.

Edit: We don't want 20 teams to compete before it starts to go above 4 boints just so no-one gets any ideas
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  #77  
Old 01-24-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I.M.O.G. View Post
If I had DB access to hwbot, I'd be curious to run a query looking at the top 20 teams, to see how many 1st place HTPP each team has in categories where there is no competition
I'd do it, but it's not so simple to extract that information from the database.

What you say is correct though, there are a couple of "backdoor" options to get points fast and easy. Most of those routes are function of the balance we seek between giving people incentive to submit a result and awarding points on a fair basis. The exact position of the balance is subjective, so hard to make it perfect to everyone.

I think the balance in the current revision is a little more to the "give incentive" than the "fair and exact rating" aspect.
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  #78  
Old 01-24-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I.M.O.G. View Post
I don't mean to complicate things, but this seems pretty similar to how Rev4 handles TPP. As individuals can dominate the enthusiast league with obscure hardware, so can teams dominate the teams league on obscure hardware.

The easiest way to get 50 TPP? Request a new CPU be added, run the 10 2D benches which award HTPP at stock.

Or you could take 3x pcmark05 global 1st and get 80 TPP. One way is very expensive and challenging enough that few people could do it - the other way...

I chose the pcmark05 route because it was the cooler way. However, any smart team would recognize there are a lot of quick, easy, and valuable points to be had by benching rare stuff or low competition stuff.

In spirit, the way HTPP are awarded should encourage more competition in those categories since they are valuable (as I understood it, that was part of the idea behind the Rev4 TPP scheme) - I get the intention, however in 95% of oddball categories it is not creating competition, its just giving easy points.

If I had DB access to hwbot, I'd be curious to run a query looking at the top 20 teams, to see how many 1st place HTPP each team has in categories where there is no competition.

By the way, just a minor gripe - I think overall the scoring system is working pretty good.
Ya know, you do an awful lot of complaining about how many points people get and what they get them on. You have the opportunity to cash in on rare and low comp stuff too you know. Just let it go. Stop screwing with the point system, it's already hard enough to keep track of. Only mentioning it because every time one of these threads comes up, you're all over it. Give it a rest.
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  #79  
Old 01-24-2012
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I think Frederik and Pieter understand I sometimes offer my input. I'm not complaining really, just offering something to consider with respect to those who make the decisions. I'm just a participant here, because I enjoy it either way. I pretty much fully agree with the post just above yours.

You on the other hand, with all due respect, *nevermind*. I appreciate your interjection, and live forever in your debt.
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Last edited by I.M.O.G.; 01-24-2012 at 20:38.
 


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