Gallup: How much grinding allowed?

[mtzki]

One can look at it as a problem of ratio between global and hw boints we (maximally) award. New hw categories are being added all the time. And when a new bm is added (increasing the awarded global boints) the new hw categories are there to begin with...so the ratio never changes to favor global part. To keep the ratio checked we must make some drastic change to the system.

And the change proposed a few posts back (with the new hw overall ranking added) would treat everybody pretty nicely. And this grinding issue would be left behind for good. No more (big) worries about the stability of the competition, ever. :)

[mtzki]

Looks like jmke wrote (or copied) pretty much the same message to two places of this forum. So my answer below (copied from the other place) may not quote him right word by word.

Originally Posted by jmke

ok let's get this straight; first you want to introduce boints for every submissions for best score by a user, reward the newbie; then you go decide to drop that idea and instead go for removing rewards for scores not done with high end hardware overclocked with high end cooling.

Absolutely and definitely no. I want to gap the grinding "exploitation" and thus control the competition such that it will stay meaningful. 180 boints gap is high. And if we take it 15 boints per bm it makes 270. Only hw part.

Originally Posted by jmke

I thought the idea was to encourage the average user to benchmark, which the current system does, by removing all boints for scores not done with popular hardware you'd end up hurting the bot imho; we should have an overview of submissions/day, which are 2 pointers, which are results submitted to categories which were 2 pointers, and which were results for higher scores with high end hardware; only then will you get a clear view of what those 300+ submissions really mean.

RB should get some queries running to show this.

I'm not suggesting "to remove all boints for scores not done with popular hardware".

Some study of the incoming results might well be good. But it won't tell too well where the balance is five years from now.

Originally Posted by jmke

current way of hwbot points is not broken; Just look at what it takes to get into TOP 20 without super high end hardware without super high end cooling, effort, money, dedication, skill, patience and persistence. I thought the hwbot system is here to make competition for those without high end hardware possible? How is removing "grinding" as you can it, encourage this? if you get little to no points for submitting scores which are not done with 2x$700 vga card and $1000 CPU, overclocked with LN2/Dry Ice, why bother? I thought the idea was to create competition on different skill levels. You can bench all the hardware in the world, you won't catch up with OPB/Kingpin other TOP10 players; and IF you do, it would have taken SO much effort & money and time that IT does equal the effort set forward to become "number 1".

Yes, these two worlds are very different. Like comparing 100m runners and marathon runners. No real good way around it. So why not just make two competitions instead of debating this to the end of the world.

Originally Posted by jmke

if you want to change the system, award TOP50 scores in GLOBAL ranking higher and steeper, not max out at 70, but set it at 150 to 100 for TOP5 , 100 to 50 for TOP20, 50 to 5 for TOP50 in GLOBAL HW rank. You'd need quite a bit of grinding to catch up with those global scores imho; and with every new benchmark added you can slowly increase this TOP to reflect the expansion of the hwbot.

Hey that was unexpected. But my honest opinion is that the gapping + hw masters rank would treat everyone better, the hw guys too. :)

[mtzki]

Change:

gap -> cap

my bad (English) :P

[aicjofs]

hmmm....mixed emotions on this idea for sure.

Part of me thinks that if 5 of the top 10 are benching "old stuff" then there could be a problem. YET...On the flip side it takes effort to bench alot of systems and not be beaten out by some else benching older hardware against you. Tough choice but taking away points for "old" won't work as it's the only way for some people to enjoy the community. Personally I think the global points is offsetting it enough anyway. For example:

I have one of the fastest Opteron 165's in the database, and I get 2 here 2 there 2 here. Where someone with little skills can go by a QX6700/Xeon whatever quad core, do a little overclocking (nothing ANYONE couldn't do if they could afford that hardware) and run some wPrime and get around 30 points. I get bugged that I spent months tweaking, buying this, setting that, and someone can build a system in a day and bench it and get more points that same day.

Point of the above being the point system has flaws, but if 5 of the top 5 people were benching old stuff and the "big boys" were ranked 20th I would say there is a problem. But it's not.....it's 5 "sprinters" and 5 "marathon runners" in the top 10....... seems pretty balanced to me.

I understand what Heavy is trying to say about it feels dirty to get the points on old hardware. I do. But I also see what richba5tard says, and I have seen it personally. I benched my file server P 3 1000, no real overclocking options, and it was #1 in everything, 2 months later I'm not even in the points for it. The boints system took care of it's self.

I like it how it is, sure it's flawed but nothing sticks out as outrageous.

[Gorod]

Originally Posted by mtzki

This change could look strict. But it could be a small price to pay for being able to maintain the stability of the overall competition. imho sth has gone really wrong if guys like k|ngp|n, OPB and Hipro5 would have to start benching museum hw to be able to get to the top of the overall chart. And i bet these guys wouldn't change their benching routines, they would just leave the competition. With a good reason to do that. We don't want to see that day. This is a crucial decision for the meaningfulness of the system.

Give it another 3-6 months and you will see it :/ - that day is much closer then you think :P

Originally Posted by HeavyH20

They do not threaten the Top 10 since they are already HALF of the Top 10 :D

Case in point:

http://www.hwbot.org/user.do?userId=5961

http://www.hwbot.org/user.do?userId=5432

http://www.hwbot.org/user.do?userId=5326 ( That would be me lol :P )

http://www.hwbot.org/user.do?userId=6680

http://www.hwbot.org/user.do?userId=6316

Currently placed 5, 6, 7, 8 and 10th on the leader list. Those 2 pointers are gold. :D

With all due respect , i have only 40-50 point earned from unchallenged hardware , and i stopped that sort of "benching" after seeing that problem coming :( ( and i realy dont like that kind of "competition" to be honest :( ) Plz read my post : http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...9&postcount=11
In fact ... in next few days i will probably personaly delete all my scores i earned with unchallenged/stock clocked hardware because of the simple reason that i too dont feel its fair and competitive to make your way to the top just by benching enormous/insane amount of hardware . What it proves ? IMHO nothing ... only that you got lots of free time and access to LOTS of hardware . No skill required - just bench it all and get your points . Seen it and done it :D But theres a limit and its time to stop folks . It would be a real sad day for HwBot when a 2 bointer with 400-500 results overruns k|ngp|n , OPB , Hipro and other REAL Benching Legends . And that day is getting closer and closer ...

Originally Posted by mtzki

We don't want to see that day. This is a crucial decision for the meaningfulness of the system.

That problem is real and i am sure we don't wana lose TOP benchers interest in participating .
Before its too late :rolleyes: , plz make that crucial decision :)

[HeavyH20]

Gorod, nothing personal as I am in the same boat. I was just highlighting the use for the Top 10 rankings. I would have to include myself if I did the Top 20. And, I would not delete those results since it is part of the game. I suspect that you, much like myself, felt a little guilty getting these easy points. I have about 50, as well. But, it was hard to sit idly by as someone who had nothing but these points passes you by and pushes you down the rankings. As for the effort, it took 2 hours for about 45 points, but that pales in comparison to tweaking 3DMark06 for 4 hours to get ONE 20 point result. So, there is no real effort to getting these results, just a little time.

As for competition, it will be hard to find much for a P4 1.8. Considering HWBOT was recently released, they may have reached TOO far back for hardware categories. I am still looking for a P3 833 to run a couple of benches on. Pretty difficult to find. :D

[Hak Foo]

If people come in and do stock-clock benches of odd hardware, it's still of value for the database.

Those pretty curves and data tables which show how benchmark scores scale for different CPU types get filled in with the unpopular speed grades and stock-clock runs. I'd say it's useful info.

I'm building an 4200+ machine for work; my friend is building an E6400. I can tell exactly how badly his will beat mine (of course, his cost 1.5 times what mine did) before the CPU fan spins once.

The low-competition categories also make it appealing for new participants. It's expensive and risky to push an E6300 over 3GHz, but they can still snag a ribbon for a relatively minor overclock on a Duron 1.8 or a PIII-1000. Moreover, it would really discourage even high-quality results on those chips. If all I had was an obscure CPU, I'd be pretty unlikely to participate if I knew even if I set out an unbreachable result (say, Palomino 2000+ @ 3000MHz), I'd still earn no credit for it until I could wrangle some competition.

[Gorod]

Originally Posted by HeavyH20

Gorod, nothing personal as I am in the same boat. I was just highlighting the use for the Top 10 rankings. I would have to include myself if I did the Top 20. And, I would not delete those results since it is part of the game. I suspect that you, much like myself, felt a little guilty getting these easy points. I have about 50, as well. But, it was hard to sit idly by as someone who had nothing but these points passes you by and pushes you down the rankings. As for the effort, it took 2 hours for about 45 points, but that pales in comparison to tweaking 3DMark06 for 4 hours to get ONE 20 point result. So, there is no real effort to getting these results, just a little time.

As for competition, it will be hard to find much for a P4 1.8. Considering HWBOT was recently released, they may have reached TOO far back for hardware categories. I am still looking for a P3 833 to run a couple of benches on. Pretty difficult to find. :D

Originally Posted by HeavyH20

I suspect that you, much like myself, felt a little guilty getting these easy points. I have about 50, as well. But, it was hard to sit idly by as someone who had nothing but these points passes you by and pushes you down the rankings.

Indeed it feels that way . And it also feels like theres something very wrong with the ranking system . Its way too easy to earn points if you have old CPU's and lots of them . VGA's are much harder , even with real old ones theres a constant competition going on . But CPU's - there are just too many of them . Lets do the math :D :

Celeron (all models) : 101 :o different models lol , just plain crazy . Every model can earn 16 points (PC04/05/SupPI 1M/SupPI 32M/WPrime32/Wprime1024/PiFast/CPU-Z = 8x2 points = 16) . So ... theoretically you can earn 1616 points (!!!) just from benching all Celeron CPU's . Most of them lack any form of competition , especially the older models , so basically all you have to do to get those points is just bench them at stock clocks :rolleyes: . The new CedarMill Celerons are fun to bench though :)

Pentium1 : ( 10 models x 6 ) x 2 = 120 points
Pentium1/MMX : (7 models x 6) x 2 = 84 points
PentumPro : ( 6 models x 6 ) x 2 = 72 points
Pentium2 : ( 7 models x 6 ) x 2 = 84 points
Pentium3 : ( 22 model x 6 ) x 2 = 264 points

Thats another 624 points from basically absolutely unchallenged hardware . :rolleyes:

*6 is the number of benchmarks - some wont run PCMark04/05 for sure *

And lets not forget about AMD :D :

K5 : ( 7 models x 6 ) x 2 = 84 points
K6 : ( 5 model x 6 ) x 2 = 60 points
K6-2 : ( 12 models x 6 ) x 2 = 144 points
K6-3 : ( 2 models x 6 ) x 2 = 24 points
Duron ( 15 models x 6 ) x 2 = 180 points
Athlon ( 33 models x 6 ) x 2 = 396 points
Athlon MP ( 14 models x 6 ) x 2 = 168 points
Athlon XP-M ( 33models x 6 ) x 2 = 396 points
Athlon XP ( 25 models x 6 ) x 2 = 300 points


Another 1752 Easy points ....
Or 3992 (!!!!!!!!!) points from Celeron/P1/P2/P3/K5/K6/K6-2/K6-3/Athlon CPU's Total .

And we didnt even start with Athlon64's and P4's lol .
There too many models of CPU's and theres no way most of them (especially the older ones) will have any form of competition ever . Anybody who seriously wants to overtake the first place in HOF can do that rather easy by exploiting old/unchallenged CPU's . Theres no problem with Video Cards , almost every single model has a moderate to solid competition , the only problem are the insane amount of CPU models in HwBot database :) that allows some individuals to exploit and earn "free" points in rather easily and effortless ;) ( the whole process is only time consuming :D) ... Thats a serious problem in a long term run :(

I am still looking for a P3 833 to run a couple of benches on. Pretty difficult to find.

heh ya some old mobos are hard to find those days :) - i have maybe 20-30 old processors laying around , some Pentium1's and 2's , maybe 5 durons , about 10 socket 370 celerons , a few rare Slot A Atlons and a few K5's and K6's . Only problem is lack of Motherboards :) . Wonder how many points is that :rolleyes: - probably another +300-400 - may be its time to play "by the rulles" :lol:

How many boints are "hiding" over there ? :D:P :

[mtzki]

Thanks Gorod, valuable input there. :)

Also the new rev2 hw base boint awarding with top 20 getting boints (this is well warranted in some more popular categories) would make the grinding situation worse.

[Gorod]

Originally Posted by mtzki

Thanks Gorod, valuable input there. :)

Also the new rev2 hw base boint awarding with top 20 getting boints (this is well warranted in some more popular categories) would make the grinding situation worse.

Sound interesting :)

Originally Posted by jmke

good luck with those 110 Celeron setups :)

No need for 101 setup :P:D

1 ) One Mobo for Socket 370 / FCPGA2 Celerons
2) One Slot 1 Mobo
3 ) One S478 Mobo
4 ) And one S775 Mobo

Thats all you need , 4 setups ;)
Older model Celerons can be bought in bulk almost for free from eBay/forums ;)
Rich/lazy kids can still buy most of them online for 5-10$ a peace or even 0.95$ a peace :D (still a good "investment" for amount of points you can pull out of them :lol:)
Just plug one , bench it , and swap in the next in line :cool::)